Why not 2 liners on the Military and the police??

jeepin

jeepin

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Jul 20, 2003
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I am curious why spyderco doesnt put 2 liners, on those 2 knives, I love the looks of them, but I just dont think it could be as strong as say, an emerson commander with dual liners, is it because they want to save money?, any information would be appreciated, also would it be very hard to find dual liners that would fit the military, with no majors changes?, thanks for your time...
 
I think the main reason is to lessen the overall weight of the knife. I don't know if they are as strong as a dual linered knife, but I never heard anyone to experience that kind of failures with a Millie or a Police. A few thousands of ELUs can't go wrong ;)
 
Yeah,If the Military was thicker and heaveier I would not like it.It is more than stronge enough the way it is.
 
Spyderco found that their nested single liner construction was as strong and useful as dual liners. The single liner makes a slimmer lighter knife that fits the hand better. The single line has a draw back, in that if you use micarta or G-10, you don't have a second liner for the screws needed for left handed carry. Although knives with dual liners may seem stronger than a spyderco with a single liner, they are not.
 
1. As far as the strength of the lock is concerned dual liners do NOT contribute significantly because usually the pins break first.
2. Roughly, one NESTED liner (like in the case of Military) is as strong as two liners with pins.
3. Police SS - you may consider SS handles as very thick liners.
4. Police G-10 handles - I have that knife - it has ONE liner with pins. I would prefer two liners mainly because of the symmetry.

5. if you want VERY strong locks - you may look at the Spyderco Chinook or Gunting (two liners with pins), or Lil'Temperance (compression lock with two NESTED liners).

What I have learned with time - folder will never be a fixed knife. It is important to have a RELIABLE lock. Even the strongest locks with thick liners would fail if you do twisting, apply strong lateral force, etc. They are very strong if you apply a vertical force.

Franco
 
Thanks guys, it looks like you have convinced me, gonna get a military now, your comments are very appreciated..
 
I must disagree with the herd.
Dual steel liner will certainly make the knives stronger.
When I twist and torque my SS Endura, or put lateral pressure on the blade, it does'nt budge.
But when I do the same to my G-10 Police I can see the handle flex away from the pivot creating a gap between the blade and handle. The FRN lockbacks are even worse.
I can also squeeze my SS Endura in the middle of the handle and there is no visible flex whatsoever. But with the G-10 Police you can see the handle flex and bow inward.

The real question is "Does a folder NEED the extra strength that dual liners afford"?

Some folks feel that unlined G-10 or Micarta is strong enough.
Some think that even unlined FRN is plenty strong in a folder.

I'm carrying an unlined FRN Endura right now.
I carry it because the VG-10 is great and the knife is comfortable to carry and use. I also think the handle is strong enough for MOST knife work.
But I'm also very much aware that it could be made alot stronger with dual steel liners (and I don't mean those thin steel liners found on the Vesuvius--they flex too much and should be thicker).
The lack of dual steel liners in the Endura really makes knives like the Benchmade 550 Griptilian much more appealing.

In the past I've begged for a SS Endura with VG-10 (or ATS-34 or 154CM), but now I would be happy with a dual steel-lined FRN VG-10 Endura.
That would be one awesome knife!

Allen.
 
The only problem with that is the added thickness.I like the Mini Griptillian but the Lg is IMHO to thick.
 
I know you guys might think I'm bashing the Emerson, but my friend's sample of the Emerson CQC-7's liner lock failed on a fairly light spinewhack. I honestly don't see how the dual liners will make a difference if the lock didn't hold up.
I have no problems having the Mili, Police and Starmate with one liner. In fact, the Starmate is one of the strongest linerlocks that I have.
 
Mr. allanc., Please explain how this flexing makes your knife weaker? Dual liners will make flexing less likely and you can't squeeze the edge of your g-10 or frn inwards, but these attributes don't contribute to knife or lock failure. At least not in my spydercos. If I squeeze my single liner starmate or my no-liner endura, they flex slightly, but return to true. The blade does not rub. The lock does not fail. Dual liners give the appearance of strength, but not the reality. Glesser has indicated that frn handles are tuff an there have been no failures due to a lack of steel liners.

A tree that flexs in the wind is not worse than a tree that flexes less; the reverse is true, the tree that bows and does not break lives, but the tree that does not flex breaks and dies.
 
I wanted steel liners on my Military for a long time, but not anymore. I’ve used the Military long enough to trust it now. I just don’t see any advantage in adding liners to a knife that is already as strong as it needs to be. The Military is just about perfect the way it is.
 
Well, when it comes to handle-lock-blade strength there's nothing like doing your own testing.
Not too long ago I sacrificed several of my knives to see how they would fail.
One of those knives was a FRN Delica.

I fixed it in place and caused the lock to fail (using only my arm strength and no other mechanical leverage).
Here's how it failed: The handle deformed and stretched/tore at the locking-bar-pivot-pin on the right side. This allowed the lock enough movement to slip out of the lock-notch in the blade.
I did the same test on an old Zytel Bucklite and a newer Zytel Bucklite. They failed the same way as the Delica (although the Delica took much more force before failing).
I also did the same thing to an old Case lockback that had a broken blade tip (the Case is very similar to the Buck 110--made of metal with wood scales and has a shark depicted on the blade).
The Case took an enormous amount of pressure before it failed, and when it did, it was because the locking-bar-pivot-pin broke. The handle and blade were otherwise unaffected.

I did'nt stop there.
Since the knive's locks were already broken, I decided to test the blade pivot with twisting and lateral pressure.
On the Delica and the two Bucklites the handles eventually broke around the pivot.
The older Bucklite virtually exploded and shattered (maybe because it was old Zytel), the newer Bucklite tore rather easily with little force, but the Delica was tough to the bitter end and did not break easily.
The Case lockback handle never did fail, the blade snapped off at the handle.

I don't really want to break my G-10 Police (although it's tempting to see how much force it can take and how it would break), but it's likely that the unlined handle would give way before anything else does.

What does all of this prove?
Maybe nothing in your eyes, but to me it means that unlined FRN (and probably unlined G-10) handles are not as strong as steel-lined or all metal handles.

Keep in mind that I'm NOT bashing Spyderco.
I like Spyderco knives very much and I even like the unlined FRN ones.
They're very lightweight and they're good for most everyday cutting.
But don't be fooled into believing that they are as strong as steel-lined handles.

I have never tested a Spyderco liner-lock, so there's not much I can say about them.
I did test my Gerber Harsey Air Ranger liner-lock.
The lock failed when alot of force was applied but nothing actually broke.

The knives that I sacrificed really did'nt cost me too much: I found the old Bucklite while fishing, the Case lockback was given to me when I was younger and the tip was broken anyway, and I had bought the newer Bucklite at a flea-market for about $10.00.
The Delica was the only one that really hurt, but it was my wife's old knife that had been replaced with a newer Blue Delica last year.

I have been toying with the idea to "test" my SS Endura, my Vesuvius, and my Benchmade 555 just to see for myself how they hold up. An all SS lockback, a Compression-lock, and an Axis-lock...very tempting indeed.
If I do, I'll post the results here.


Good luck,
Allen.
 
That was a very interesting and informative post. I have always suspected that the pivot pin was the weakest link but never tested it as you have done. Perhaps you could consider posting it in the Reviews and Testing forum since I believe it would be of interest to people who may not visit the Spyderco forum.
 
Mr. Allen C, you made some very tough tests to your knives and I understand that the unlinered ones failed sooner, which is understandable. Obviously, plastic (even FRN) will fail sooner than steel. However, those are folding knives and their main purpose is cutting. I really don't think that your knives do take such abuse in real life. If you regularily use them in such a harsh environement, you should take a fixed knife (or even a prybar). After all, a folder is just a cutting blade that hides inside the handles.
If you really look for a strong folder, try Spyderco's MBC line (Chinook, Gunting, Lil'T and the newer ATR).
 
Spyderco breaks everything we make. Usually about one in 200. Something always breaks. We pay attention to how much it holds, is it meeting spec, what breaks, and has anything changed since the last test?

Lock strength and reliability are two different things.

Most of our FRN models will fall into the "high medium range". Medium lock strength is over 50 inch/lbs oper inch up to 100 inch/lbs per inch of blade. The Delica usually falls into the 80-90 range. On a 3" blade, that is about 240 - 270 inch/lbs. In the FRN models, it is usually the pins that pull on the FRN causing deformation until the lock fails. Also keep in mind that not all FRN is the same.

sal
 
IMHO...

It's useful to know when/how something will break, so you can limit use to non-destructive applications. If the object is properly designed, that limit should be somewhat above normal daily use (how much above depends). There are some conceivable situations where you need a knife to do something that it wasn't really designed for, but you have no other choice. And it's nice to have a little extra strength in case those situations arise.

Back to the original question - if I was in a situation where prying with a knife was likely to occur, and it would be life-or-death and/or I couldn't easily get another knife, burly fixed blade would be my first choice. A folder with one or two liners wouldn't be a big issue.

For EDC, I think that the single liner is more than strong enough. My Benchmade AFCK and Military scales flex about the same in the hand. The carbon fiber Mili proto I handled had zero handle flex (hand pressure). If you have to pry, you can pry with the whole thing closed.

Though it would be interesting to see some hard test data - multiple knives of each type, single and dual liners, to see how big the difference acutally is.

YMMV
 
Regarding flexing, our G-10 is custom made with 20% more layers of glass to compensate for the material milled out in the pocket for the liner.

Compression locks require 2 liners. the Lil Temperance has 2. The new Paramilitary & Yojimbo have compression locks and 2 steel liners.

sal
 
I'd say that it's interesting that a unlined FRN model can be broken, but IMO, it really isn't regular use that one would exert enough force to break the pins, nor would I myself have enough strength to do so.
Rather informative indeed, but yeah Spyderco has the habit of testing and even breaking knives that you send in for sharpening. Those that were replaced were FRN models, but then again, I don't think I'll push it enough to worry.
 
let me say this: if any of you are thinking of "testing" your knives, just send them to me. i'll test them out lovingly and carefully over the next several years and send you a full report.:D

btw, do a lot of folks here pry with their folders? it seems to be a recurring theme on BF lately. personally, i'd never dream of it, not even for light prying. my knives are for cutting only.

abe m.
 
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