why not thinner blades?

[cotdt]

We should come up with an American knife that is thin but better than an Opinel, those Frenchies need to be put in their place every so often.

It's not just the Frenchies, but the Japanese also make some thin blade knives. American knife philosophy is more combat-oriented hence we never see any thin knives. I only have one and it was a custom. Cuts like a light saber with its M2 steel.

Wow, I think you guys are all missing the point- it's all about VALUE! When you buy a knife, you're buying STEEL. Why would you pay the same for a 1/2 pound of steel when you can get a WHOLE pound from someone else for the same price?

You guys always try to make it too complicated!

It will be hard to just buy a 1/4" knife and cut it into 4 new knives. I wish it was that easy.

 

[thejamppa]

mora 2000 has amazingly thin blade and that makes it so good cutter... but it won't survive batoning.

 

[effer]

Come on.... Am I the only one who will be defending a bit thicker blades? 1/8" is perfect for me. Do I abuse knives? Maybe. But I think what is abuse to one knife is more or less normal to the other knife.

First of all, let me say that I do agree that 1/16" knife cuts and slices better then 1/8". If it is all you do with it, then there is no way anyone could convince you to switch to 1/8" from 1/16. I myself went through a lot of slipjoints when I was younger. As a youngster (~10 y/o) I abused those thin blades and snapped a few (cheap knives, I didn't care). I've seen thin knives sharpened on the stone to the point when they lost 50% of the blade width (never done that myself). Scary.

Well, I grew up, became smarter and more experienced, learned the limits of different knives. I think 90% of the common tasks can be done with a thinner blade without any locks. But there also situations when thicker blade is needed. And the thing is that you can use thick knife to do a task of thin knife, but the opposite is not always possible. The first post in the thread suggested using knife for batonning through concrete block, nails, etc. To most this would be an abuse, especially if we are talking about 1/16" knife. Some will say "get an axe, chisel etc". Others would say "what if no such tools are immediately available?". One way of another we are talking about tasks that are not very common to knives. If we are talking about fixed blade, then batonning and cutting nails is fine with thinner blade, if force is applied directly to the spine. If force is applied sideways than blade most likely will brake. For such abuse, thicker blade is just more appropriate, just like a bigger sharpening angle of the cutting edge. There is no way I would trust 1/16" blade for survival/wilderness tasks (as batonning suggests). For other tasks I have kitchen knives.

If we are talking about folding knives, then it's a bit different story (I wouldn't baton with a folder), but I still think that there is a place for thicker blade here. First of all, I think the trend in modern folding knives is to have a folder with a strength close to the fixed blade. Hence the strong locks and thicker blades. Do people need it? A few. Do people like it is? A lot of people do. It is not common in our society to carry a fixed blade, but a folding knife with a strength of a fixed blade is more acceptable and is very attractive option. Again it is not much of the "need", as much of the "want". People want to depend on the tool that they EDC. Hence the lifetime warranty advertisement.

Will 1/16" knife will perform better than 1/8"? Well, it depend on what you do with it. For peeling apples and such, yes, thinner is better. If you would try to push cut through a thick wire or other tough material where you have to apply pressure on spine, well... thinner blade is not comfortable for it. 1/8 would be better here. If you need to separate two pieces of material (prying), then thicker blade will be better and safer to use. Some will say again "get a wire cutter and a prybar..." Sure, but I don't want to carry a wire cutter, chisel and a hammer to cut through tough stuff, I don't want to carry prybar to do some medium prying, etc ... Just like I don't want to carry a bottle opener if I can "abuse" my lighter to open beer. I can use my knife with 1/8" stock in many tasks that I wouldn't try to perform with a 1/16" knife. Have I done that? Yes, I have. What I have noticed is that when I have a task that is better done with a thinner knife (like food) I usually have one available, but if there is a task that calls for a thicker blade (abuse), a better tool is usually not there. And again what is abuse to a thin knife is not necessarily an abuse to a thicker blade. To me it has nothing to do with mall ninja stuff, combat, self defense. Just a regular use.

 

[Masteroffajitas]

The thinnest I'll go is my mora. I like blades a little thicker for strength, and bushcrafting. 3/16s is as high as I'll go for an outdoor blade...I can't belive people talke 1/4 inch spine blades into the woods....yikes!

 

[Masteroffajitas]

Come on.... Am I the only one who will be defending a bit thicker blades? 1/8" is perfect for me. Do I abuse knives? Maybe. But I think what is abuse to one knife is more or less normal to the other knife.
First of all, let me say that I do agree that 1/16" knife cuts and slices better then 1/8". If it is all you do with it, then there is no way anyone could convince you to switch to 1/8" from 1/16. I myself went through a lot of slipjoints when I was younger. As a youngster (~10 y/o) I abused those thin blades and snapped a few (cheap knives, I didn't care). I've seen thin knives sharpened on the stone to the point when they lost 50% of the blade width (never done that myself). Scary. Well, I grew up, became smarter and more experienced, learned the limits of different knives. I think 90% of the common tasks can be done with a thinner blade without any locks. But there also situations when thicker blade is needed. And the thing is that you can use thick knife to do a task of thin knife, but the opposite is not always possible. The first post in the thread suggested using knife for batonning through concrete block, nails, etc. To most this would be an abuse, especially if we are talking about 1/16" knife. Some will say "get an axe, chisel etc". Others would say "what if no such tools are immediately available?". One way of another we are talking about tasks that are not very common to knives. If we are talking about fixed blade, then batonning and cutting nails is fine with thinner blade, if force is applied directly to the spine. If force is applied sideways than blade most likely will brake. For such abuse, thicker blade is just more appropriate, just like a bigger sharpening angle of the cutting edge. There is no way I would trust 1/16" blade for survival tasks (as batonning suggests).
If we are talking about folding knives, then it's a bit different story (I wouldn't baton with a folder), but I still think that there is a place for thicker blade here. First of all, I think the trend in modern folding knives is to have a folder with a strength close to the fixed blade. Hence the strong locks and thicker blades. Do people need it? A few. Do people like it is? A lot of people do. It is not common in our society to carry a fixed blade, but a folding knife with a strength of a fixed blade is more acceptable and is very attractive option. Again it is not much of the "need", as much of the "want". People want to depend on the tool that they EDC. Hence the lifetime warranty advertisement. Will 1/16" knife will perform better than 1/8"? Well, it depend on what you do with it. For peeling apples and such, yes, thinner is better. If you would try to push cut through a thick wire or other tough material where you have to apply pressure on spine, well... thinner blade is not comfortable for it. 1/8 would be better here. If you need to separate two pieces of material (prying), then thicker blade will be better and safer to use. Some will say again "get a wire cutter and a prybar..." Sure, but I don't want to carry a wire cutter, chisel and a hammer to cut through tough stuff, I don't want to carry prybar to do some medium prying, etc ... Just like I don't want to carry a bottle opener if I can "abuse" my lighter to open beer. I can use my knife with 1/8" stock in many tasks that I wouldn't try to perform with a 1/16" knife. Have I done that? Yes, I have. What I have noticed is that when I have a task that is better done with a thinner knife (like food) I usually have one available, but if there is a task that calls for a thicker blade (abuse), a better tool is usually not there. And again what is abuse to a thin knife is not necessarily an abuse to a thicker blade. To me it has nothing to do with mall ninja stuff, combat, self defense, just a regular use.

People could read your post better in paragraphs.

 

[effer]

People could read your post better in paragraphs.

Point taken. Is now better?

One more thing. When blade is hardened at some really high RC level, the thinner blade is a lot easier to break then a thicker one.

 

[Gator97]

I agree with OP, there is a severe lack of thin blades and they have their use not only in the kitchen.

BTW, it's not that clear whether or not "thick blade can do everything a thin blade can". That holds true for short amount of time, but if you have to cut for hours I suspect you'll simply get tired and drop it.
Try cutting cardboard for 3-4 hours or dressing several deer or something like that with 1/4 thick blade. Depending on the length of that, it may not be doable, or few times more exhausting than 1/16 or 1/8.

Besides, as things are today, thick blades aren't fully hardened. Not that there are too many fully hardened thin blades either, but I have not seen thick blades in 62-67HRC area, while thin stuff is available in that range.

Also, when a maker makes a thick blade, apparently he's considering abusive use, which would explain why not harden to the max. It has to take some or a lot of abuse, harder steel will break or chip easier, etc.

Thin blades at least for some folks mean light cutting, and they as usual are optimized for such. Thus they hold the edge longer for those cutting jobs.

That brings back to the thick can do whatever thin can thingy. Thin blade, fully hardened will cut longer without sharpening and require less force/effort to do the job. Thick will dull faster and exhaust the user faster too.
I don't have very scientific data here, just very simple physics laws. A thick blade requires a lot more force to push through the material. Therefore, more force is applied to the cutting edge as well. Considering that the edge (sharp one) is micron or less thick that translates into tremendous pressures. Plus, when exerting more force on the knife, you're more likely to have less control and produce more lateral loads on the blade and the edge. All that will dull the edge faster.


Because of all that, I think thicker blade would dull faster even at the same hardness, and typically they're softer compared to thin ones from the same alloy.

In the end, no thick blade can't really do all thin blade can and yes, I do own few dozen thick blades They have their job and thin ones have theirs.

 

[elkins45]

Point taken. Is now better?

One more thing. When blade is hardened at some really high RC level, the thinner blade is a lot easier to break then a thicker one.

Yes, your edit made a huge difference in readability. Thanks for revising it.

Your new point is a good one as well, and I suspect that's a lot of the reason for the knives we see. Knife making is a business, and you won't stay in business long if you have to replace a bunch of broken blades because your customers are idiots---or if you get badmouthed a lot for NOT replacing them. Either way you loose.

Most makers probably do some serious thinking and research about how hard they can run blades before they start getting either complaints about sharpenability or broken ones. They probably err on the side of softer just so they don't have to deal with either.

 

[Fred Sanford]

Look how many folks are sending their knives to Tom Krein for regrinds (me included).

Thick sucks. If I want thick blades for stuff I'll use a chopper or an axe or hatchet.

About the best size thickness is the blade of a SAK. Even the Spyderco Centofante 3 and 4 are thinner than my Victorinox Farmer blade. They are even thin in comparison to most other knives and they cut like light-sabers.

I think there are waaaaay too many people around that are carrying something that has a thick blade (while it still may be sharp) just because they can. There is no way that I would need something as thick as a ZT, Strider, Snody, or otherwise. I do like the look of the ZT, Strider, Snody, etc. but I just can't see a use for them.

I would love to see more knife blades made with thinner stock than what is "cool".

 

[effer]

Look how many folks are sending their knives to Tom Krein for regrinds (me included).

Thick sucks.

I know a lot of people sending knives to Tom to regrind for the goal of having a thinner edge, not necessarily a thinner blade. In most Krein's work I see that he usually leaves the spine as thick as it was. The bottom (cutting edge) becomes thinner, top (spine) stays thick. Great combo. Yes, it would make a knife a bit thinner, but it doesn't make 1/16" knife out of 1/8" or 3/16" (unless you ask Krein to do that I guess).

 

[Swedge]

On my Delica 4 in zdp-189, he turned it from a saber grind into a full flat grind. The spine may as thick as it was when I sent it to him (don't really know), but everything below the spine is thinner to varying degrees. It's not just the edge. And a 1/8" spine (max width) isn't all that thick.

 

[effer]

On my Delica 4 in zdp-189, he turned it from a saber grind into a full flat grind. The spine may as thick as it was when I sent it to him (don't really know), but everything below the spine is thinner to varying degrees. It's not just the edge. And a 1/8" spine (max width) isn't all that thick.

Well, I was meaning to say is that usually goal of that regrind is to bring the blade right before the cutting edge to the 0.010" or so. I do know that he grinds the whole thing (full blade or original grind), otherwise it would be sharpening instead of regrind. And yes, 1/8" isn't all that thick. That's exactly my point.

Now try to imagine if that delica was 1/16" with a full flat grind made out of ZDP-189 heat treated to 67. I bet I could brake it in half just using my fingers.
As people noted before, manufacturers also trying to make knives fool proof as much as they can. Nobody likes dealing with complaints and returns.

 

[jacktheknife]

Gentlemen,

I am glad to see the post on 1/16" steel and 'thinner blades'.
When I started making knives from 'new blade steel' rather than 'junk'
I thought to myself,
what is my favorite 'using knife'?
Well, my favorite knife for skinning coon and squirrels
is an 'Old Timer' three bladed pocket knife.
And the blade thickness is 1/16".
So I started out with the thinnest steel.

A Masterbladesmith friend told me, however,
that 1/16" is too thin to heat treat easily."
"It will cool too fast".
"But if I use steel that thin..."
"I should quench it in 'under' a second"!
From 'non-magnetic' to 'under the quenching oil'
in ['under' a second.]


I guess we will see,
I have 37 blades of 1/16"
and all but for six ready to handle.
And I heat treated them!


Jack the Knife
and Sandymay asleep on our bed in there
{She's a hound}
http://jacksknifeshop.tripod.com/

 

[midnight flyer]

Also, there's always a bit of "bigger is better" mentality. In addition, a good deal of knife nuts fancy themselves somewhat always-prepared self reliant survivalists. We demand bulletproof tools, and regularly go through the mental exercise of asking ourselves questions like, "Do you trust your knife with your life?" This exercise tends to demand thicker blades better suited to abuse such as prying. Ironically, if you were to post a Spyderco or CRK with a broken tip, which you claim to have done while prying, be prepared for the round of finger wagging about prying with the knife.

Hard to think how that could have been said better! :thumbup:

When I pick up some of these 1/4" (or bigger) thickness knives I can hear Tim "The Toolman" Taylor grunting about "more power".

I think there is a great deal of satisfaction out handing your 3 pound monster to someone that uses a plain old folder, a camp knife or a utility hunter. And how you can frighten the sheeple in your life like your little sister, the widow lady next door, and your college aged girlfriend.

Just kidding!!

Seriously, there seems to be a definite air of macho preparedness that is transferred by simple ownership of the sharpened crowbar. Kind of like buying your first handgun. Before anyone gets too offended, I have sharpened mini crowbar... I really like it, too!

Personally though, I don't get the movement to bulk. I don't want to wag around any more weight or bulk than I have to during the day or when out and about. In 40 years of camping and hiking, I have never had to chop my way out of anything, much less worrying about having a knife that is large enough to save my life in an emergency. Is there really a correlation between blade length and thickness to survivability? I am sure some will say so with great conviction, but have they ever really put their life on the line somewhere depending on their knife skills? I haven't seen a post yet where someone has claimed that their 16", 3# knife was the actual reason they survived a terrible calamity.

I rarely see any of those knives even scuffed, and some feel they have to send those macho monsters "back to the spa" because the finish is scratched or discolored. To me that's about like sending your dump truck back to the factory to be refinished because you got the dump bed dirty from using it to haul gravel.

I like playing with my big knives, but for me (said carefully, I know I am not everyone here, and YMMV) they simply aren't practical field knives. FUN... hell yes. Practical, maybe... for some things under some conditions.

For slicing, it is hard to beat a thin, razor sharp polished blade ( 1/16" or so thick) that cuts with the accuracy of a scalpel. I recently purchased a 90% finished paring knife blade at a gun show and handled it myself. After polishing and sharpening the blade on this little 3 1/2" bladed razor, I am astonished at how well it cuts. It's bendy, flexible, and takes an easy edge that whips through anything in the kitchen.

But as pointed out earlier, it won't baton.

I did see a Mora video on youtube where a guy used his carbon steel knife to baton a small log. I think there is another one where someone uses a Mora to cut plumbing pipe. I googled Mora test video and got a lot of good hits. If anyone has any doubt about the validity of using and depending on a well made and properly tempered knife, you should check them out.

Robert

 

[Ankerson]

I rarely see any of those knives even scuffed, and some feel they have to send those macho monsters "back to the spa" because the finish is scratched or discolored. To me that's about like sending your dump truck back to the factory to be refinished because you got the dump bed dirty from using it to haul gravel.

I use mine, beat the heck out of them.

But yeah I sent my Busse CGFBM to the SPA to get refreshed as it was beaten up really good. For me I tend to take care of the knives I really like and I do use them and it's nice to know they can be put back to original condition if I choose to. The nice thing about it is that it will be like having a new knife to beat on again.

 

[me2]

When does grind geometry come into play? I have a blade with a spine 1/16" thick and 1" wide with a 10 degree bevel on it. A blade 3/16" thick full flat ground would cut better for most uses and be easier to sharpen. On the other hand, I've had situations where a thicker blade (1/8") absolutely would not cut what my thinner blade (1/16) would.

Finally, I see there may be a market for my (unmade) 1/32" spine kitchen knives.

 

[Ankerson]

When does grind geometry come into play? I have a blade with a spine 1/16" thick and 1" wide with a 10 degree bevel on it. A blade 3/16" thick full flat ground would cut better for most uses and be easier to sharpen. On the other hand, I've had situations where a thicker blade (1/8") absolutely would not cut what my thinner blade (1/16) would.

Finally, I see there may be a market for my (unmade) 1/32" spine kitchen knives.

I think it depends on what people are really going to use the knives for.

If one is going to be cutting cheese, fruit etc then go buy a freaking $5 paring knife at Wal-Mart because they make kitchen knives for those things.

These whole slicing vs so called Pry Bar discussions are getting really old.

There are plenty of knives for different uses out there on the market.

 

[cotdt]

Now try to imagine if that delica was 1/16" with a full flat grind made out of ZDP-189 heat treated to 67. I bet I could brake it in half just using my fingers.
As people noted before, manufacturers also trying to make knives fool proof as much as they can. Nobody likes dealing with complaints and returns.

Good point. Naturally, 1/16" blades would need to be made out of tougher material. If the 1/16" knife was made out of ultra-tough steel like S5, it would be tougher than the vast majority of 1/8" knives. At 60 rc, S5 has 3 times the impact toughness as L6. CPM 3V and CPM M4 are also excellent options if more wear resistance is needed. High carbon stainless steels might not be the best for hard-use 1/16" knives. I did make a knife out of S30V though, and it holds up, but I've yet to baton it through concrete block.

Paring knives are often more 1/32" than 1/16". I think 1/16" or 3/32" would be excellent thickness for knives, but they are rarely used. 1/32" has a bit of flex which I dislike, it's too thin.

 

[cotdt]

Gentlemen,

I am glad to see the post on 1/16" steel and 'thinner blades'.
When I started making knives from 'new blade steel' rather than 'junk'
I thought to myself,
what is my favorite 'using knife'?
Well, my favorite knife for skinning coon and squirrels
is an 'Old Timer' three bladed pocket knife.
And the blade thickness is 1/16".
So I started out with the thinnest steel.

A Masterbladesmith friend told me, however,
that 1/16" is too thin to heat treat easily."
"It will cool too fast".
"But if I use steel that thin..."
"I should quench it in 'under' a second"!
From 'non-magnetic' to 'under the quenching oil'
in ['under' a second.]


I guess we will see,
I have 37 blades of 1/16"
and all but for six ready to handle.
And I heat treated them!


Jack the Knife
and Sandymay asleep on our bed in there
{She's a hound}
http://jacksknifeshop.tripod.com/

Yeah they are hard to heat treat and they warp. 1095 would need to be quenched super quickly, but air-hardening steels could be used. Such steels would be more suitable for thin knives.

 

[Ramm9]

I did make a knife out of S30V though, and it holds up, but I've yet to baton it through concrete block.

Pics or it didn't happen.......

Paring knives are often more 1/32" than 1/16". I think 1/16" or 3/32" would be excellent thickness for knives, but they are rarely used. 1/32" has a bit of flex which I dislike, it's too thin.

Rarely used for what?

I just measured a mass produced utility knife to be 1/16". There have to be millions of them in the market...

If 1/16" or 3/32" is the "excellent" thickness, split the difference and go with 2mm...again, millions.....

There are millions for a reason...they are perfect for what they are perfect for.