Why secondary and micro bevels?

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Wore the Kilt last week, but not in this 100 degree heat.

I thought that you were being more of a nitt picker than normal. Glad to know you are still the somewhat normal PITA that you always were.
 
"By a laboratory standard, the geometry is changed every time the knife cuts something."

... ain't that the truth.

Someone needs to give the boys in the lab a brew. They've been working overtime.
 
Ahhh... the comradery among makers here is as stifling as the recent heat wave. When folks ask me how I manage forging in this kind of heat (55C - 131F with the humidex) I always respond by telling them it is 2300F at the mouth of my forge no matter what the temperature is outside.
 
We have been discussing what is probably the most fundamental element of knife blades, the experts (neophytes not included) have weighed in and I don't think there is a consensus on the subject. This is a fascinating discussion.
 
BMK said:
We have been discussing what is probably the most fundamental element of knife blades, the experts (neophytes not included) have weighed in and I don't think there is a consensus on the subject. This is a fascinating discussion.
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Nice to see you can still stir the pot Monkey! Have you done any research on "Wootz"? (Not to change the subject)
 
Thank you. What would a neophyte like me know about "Wootz"? I am still trying to understand the basics of knife making before I can even think about things like "Wootz" and most other subjects on this forum. As you might expect, I don't do much "research" but I do think when absolutely necessary.

RyanW said:
Nice to see you can still stir the pot Monkey! Have you done any research on "Wootz"? (Not to change the subject)
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Hey BMK why do you grind scandis?.....forget the geometry issues, is it because its a very simple easy grind to pull off?
 
Thanks for your question. I can answer in two words: It works.

As a neophyte, I consider the scandi to be second only to a convex bevel in performing the broadest range of functions expected of a knife.

GTH11 said:
Hey BMK why do you grind scandis?.....forget the geometry issues, is it because its a very simple easy grind to pull off?
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LOL.....simple grind for a simple knife for a simple neophyte, your new like me at this, challenge yourself to move forward in this experience of knifemaking, scandis are easy grinds, dont get stuck on them out of convenience, ie..broadest range of function and easiest to bring to market?
 
BMK said:
Thanks for you question. I can answer in two words: It works.

As a neophyte, I consider the scandi to be second only to a convex bevel in performing the broadest range of functions expected of a knife.
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retracted
Del

It seems as my advice is neither welcome nor apprecited I will absent myself.
 
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delbert ealy said:
Aparently you don't use your own knives for a wide range of tasks then.
Del
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THIS is not advice Del.

Why would you choose to throw out an assumption/insult like that? We all have reasons for what we do. If you feel you have something better to offer, throw that out instead. Absorb what is useful and let the other stuff slide. Nothing good comes from such statements.

delbert ealy said:
retracted
Del

It seems as my advice is neither welcome nor apprecited I will absent myself.
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So, now you retract your comment and claim that we offended you for not completely agreeing with your first post in this thread? This is not the first time I've seen you flee a discussion like this. The pattern seems to be that you state your opinion (which WILL get questioned on a discussion board), throw a couple passive aggressive insults, then duck out when you get called on them.

It is just another grind that serves a purpose like any other. It might be the best thing since short-shorts for some, and worse than wool underwear for others..... either way, at least your ass is covered.:p
 
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BMK said:
I consider the scandi to be second only to a convex bevel in performing the broadest range of functions expected of a knife.
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So you consider the convexed edge to the the most versatile and best performer ??

I disagree.

In my opinion, convex is suited to a chopper, but for everything else thinner cuts better.
for example, the ripe tomato test.



If one grind did it all, the others wouldn't exist.
 
12345678910 said:
In my opinion, convex is suited to a chopper, but for everything else thinner cuts better.
for example, the ripe tomato test.

If one grind did it all, the others wouldn't exist.
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I agree with both points. I do like me a convex chopper, but more because it seems to push wood apart better, not because I'm worried about weakness.

We have lots of very tough and strong steel to choose from; we can design from the edge up, based on how we want a knife to cut, and let the steel/HT take care of strength issues.
 
Rick Marchand said:
I mean ALL knives lumped together in one heaping pile of pointy, pokey, slashy, stabby loveliness..... The knifemaking industry in general.

I don't see the relation between production knife shoulder thickness and heat treat, bud?
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So why do production knives have such thick edges then? The first thing I learned here was "grind it thinner" :)
 
Rick Marchand said:
THIS is not advice Del.

Why would you choose to throw out an assumption/insult like that? We all have reasons for what we do. If you feel you have something better to offer, throw that out instead. Absorb what is useful and let the other stuff slide. Nothing good comes from such statements.


So, now you retract your comment and claim that we offended you for not completely agreeing with your first post in this thread? This is not the first time I've seen you flee a discussion like this. The pattern seems to be that you state your opinion (which WILL get questioned on a discussion board), throw a couple passive aggressive insults, then duck out when you get called on them.

It is just another grind that serves a purpose like any other. It might be the best thing since short-shorts for some, and worse than wool underwear for others..... either way, at least your ass is covered.:p
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Rick,
After reflection I agree that both the comments you have quoted by me were out of line, thank you for calling me out on them and I apologize to you and to BMK.
I would like to post a comment that reveals more of my true nature.

BMK,
I think an exercise that will be truely helpful is to make a similar knife with each of the grinds mentioned in this thread, and to use them in the real world, try out each type of grind and come to a conclusion for yourself. Many of the makers here have a favorite grind(including me) with some being based on best performance and some based on what they like to do. I think you will find they all have a place and that no one grind is suited to all tasks.
Thanks,
Del
 
I don't know. Perhaps some of the frustration Del has experienced comes from opinions that multiple makers have proffered to answer the original question which boils down to geometry and the intended cutting task. After those answers, there are comments like:

"I don't think there is a consensus on the subject"
"so far, I don't understand"
"I really don't understand why secondary bevels are used at all"
"the question remains, why not just use a single bevel to zero"
"again, why are they used"

Then again, maybe we're all being duped by a conspiracy to preserve microbevels. :) I can see the utility of a simple scandi grind, but the function (and aesthetics) of a small secondary (micro) bevel make that knife preferred to me.

BMK, I appreciate your desire to learn and the fact that you're asking questions that most people do not. Please be patient with us as we strive to be patient with you :D.

--nathan
 
silver_pilate said:
BMK, I appreciate your desire to learn and the fact that you're asking questions that most people do not. Please be patient with us as we strive to be patient with you :D.

--nathan
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Lol. I think it's a general consensus that Bushmonkey loves to stir the pot. I think the other thing to be remembered is that he has thick skin. Likely thicker than most people on here actually. So it will usually be other people being upset, not him.


I was offended by his attitude early on but have grown fond of him.

We can't all like the same knives, blades, edges. It appeared to me Del was just frustrated with Monkey asking, and arguing the same point without appearing to actually respond in an informational way to anybody's opinion that didn't reaffirm that his way was the best way.

I do appreciate the post though, as blade geometry is a very interesting subject that can be gone over again and again.

And Daniel.... Mmmmmmmm...... I might have to crawl over the San Juans the next time I'm down to visit my aunt in Sedalia.. Only a few 12,000 footers between her house and yours if I recall correctly.
 
I apologize for centering you out Del... we are all guilty of becoming overly passionate about how we make knives. I was mainly concerned with your decision to leave the thread... I would hate to lose a participant with your experience. Don't let us opinionated jerks push you around.

Rick
 
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