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Why steel a knife when you can hone and sharpen at the same time?
- Thread starter bubblewhip
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I agree with me2 that there is a difference between a smooth steel and a regular kitchen steel (which removes metal). I have the book "The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening" by John Juranitch, which among other things explains the process of steeling and it's importance in the meat industry. He recommends a smooth steel for light touchups between cutting chores. Also, he promotes having the steel at a vertical angle, so as to maintain the edge geometry when sharpening. It's a good introductory book, for those who are interested (relax, I'm not getting paid to say this haha!).
We have open enrollment on the 2nd Tuesday of the 6th week of every month.
I really need to read the Juranich book. I've read Lee and Verhoeven, and excerpts from Bottorf's "Sharpening Made Easy".
Those kitchen steels really are bad. They remove metal, but I cant tell if its from the blade or the steel. I've had them leave slivers in my hand before they were ever used, and the "grooves" are so poorly formed that you frequently hit a snag and end up raking your edge along a burr of metal.
The showy display of fencing seen on TV and cooking shows is next to useless for improving an edge. They go so fast, I can't see how they aren't just banging the edge into the steel at random angles between 10 and 30, and even then its only about the middle 1/2 of the blade. The very tip and the heel hardly touch the steel.
There is enough misinformation about sharpening we could easily fill twice as much volume with that as the 4 major good sharpening publications (Juranich, Lee, Bottorf, Verhoeven).
I'm still in awe that I have missed such a valuable and time proven technique as steeling for so long.
I really need to read the Juranich book. I've read Lee and Verhoeven, and excerpts from Bottorf's "Sharpening Made Easy".
Those kitchen steels really are bad. They remove metal, but I cant tell if its from the blade or the steel. I've had them leave slivers in my hand before they were ever used, and the "grooves" are so poorly formed that you frequently hit a snag and end up raking your edge along a burr of metal.
The showy display of fencing seen on TV and cooking shows is next to useless for improving an edge. They go so fast, I can't see how they aren't just banging the edge into the steel at random angles between 10 and 30, and even then its only about the middle 1/2 of the blade. The very tip and the heel hardly touch the steel.
There is enough misinformation about sharpening we could easily fill twice as much volume with that as the 4 major good sharpening publications (Juranich, Lee, Bottorf, Verhoeven).
I'm still in awe that I have missed such a valuable and time proven technique as steeling for so long.
I steel my steel and Titanium blades on the sides of a ceramic blade. That surface is as smooth as glass and very hard (Zirconium carbide). The results are good unless a knife is past its resharpening point. PVD coated blades also work the same way (as steels).
David Martin
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Me2, Your correct, I've seen many license meat cutters, steeling their knives too quickly and flashy to do any good for the edge . I steel mine much slower making sure the edge angle is correct and I trail, not push, like stroping . It does help in giving it alittle more cutting life while putting off sharpening alittle longer . But I think touching up the blade on my fine Spyderco ceramic stone does even better with little metal removal . I have John's book and on what he writes its good, sound info.. Remember it was first published in 1985 since, then much more indebt information has been printed . Whereas Joe Talmadge and Chad Ward's writting go into more depth even on steeling . DM
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Yes and no. Many flashy displays are for show but do not mistake all for bogus. Just as a barber that specializes in shaving can strop faster than your eye can follow, some (not all) meat cutters and chefs have amazing skills and can steel very quickly.
There are some amazing folks out there.
That's true, there are some amazing people out there. But there is a huge difference between a 20 year veteran steeling his butcher knife and a newb watching and thinking that's the way its supposed to be done. It's sometimes difficult to tell which you're dealing with.
David Martin
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I have 30 yrs. experiece cutting meats and 20yrs. inspecting meats and still cannot steel my knives fast and flashy to do any good . DM
Ok, all you following this thread, try this on for size. Here's how I propose that steeling can actually require more metal removal and shorten the life of a knife.
About 10 months ago, I sharpened some very used kitchen knives for a coworker. They were wedding gifts and had not been sharpened in 20 years. I was injured at the time and didn't have access to the belt sander, so it was all handstones from the wheelchair.
Starting w/ a 220 grit waterstone, I formed a burr, then switched sides, and the burr broke off, literally. I had a little piece of steel just wide enough to see laying on my stone. This happened all along the edge, and persisted until I ground away quite a bit more, at least as much as the first burr. After this weakned material was removed, it took a hair whittling edge off the Sharpmaker white stones, no problem.
I suggest that if a steel is used in this way, more metal will need to be removed whenever a proper sharpening is done. It took a lot of effort to get past the weakened metal to steel that would not break away from pressure on the stone. I have never experienced this before. I suppose at 20 years to a stretch, it may never become an issue. However, for most of us here, these knives were beyond usefullness as cutting tools and would have been sharpened many times before, when the steel had obviously quit working.
About 10 months ago, I sharpened some very used kitchen knives for a coworker. They were wedding gifts and had not been sharpened in 20 years. I was injured at the time and didn't have access to the belt sander, so it was all handstones from the wheelchair.
Starting w/ a 220 grit waterstone, I formed a burr, then switched sides, and the burr broke off, literally. I had a little piece of steel just wide enough to see laying on my stone. This happened all along the edge, and persisted until I ground away quite a bit more, at least as much as the first burr. After this weakned material was removed, it took a hair whittling edge off the Sharpmaker white stones, no problem.
I suggest that if a steel is used in this way, more metal will need to be removed whenever a proper sharpening is done. It took a lot of effort to get past the weakened metal to steel that would not break away from pressure on the stone. I have never experienced this before. I suppose at 20 years to a stretch, it may never become an issue. However, for most of us here, these knives were beyond usefullness as cutting tools and would have been sharpened many times before, when the steel had obviously quit working.
Me2,
Your experience makes sense to me. If that edge was getting pushed left and right by constant steeling, it would get brittle and break, just like a piece of thin metal that is repeatedly bent back and forth.
Of course, a little bit of steeling would not have such an extreme effect. It seems to me that steeling with a smooth steel could be useful on a soft 440A blade that tends to roll the edge.
Your experience makes sense to me. If that edge was getting pushed left and right by constant steeling, it would get brittle and break, just like a piece of thin metal that is repeatedly bent back and forth.
Of course, a little bit of steeling would not have such an extreme effect. It seems to me that steeling with a smooth steel could be useful on a soft 440A blade that tends to roll the edge.
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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The never ending subject of steeling......
First you need to understand what a steel does and the different effects of a smooth vs grooved steel. Before that though you need to understand what really happens to the edge during use. The common mis-conception is that there are shark like teeth that get bent and folded thus making the edge dull, this explanation however is far from the truth. Edge dulling happens from abrasion, compression, and lateral force applied to the edge. Imagine a knife edge on a large scale say the size of a surf board, now imagine taking a hammer and beating the crap out of it in all directions then dragging it through a bed of rocks. The end result is a edge that has suffered from abrasion and plastic deformation, and any "teeth" that were there were long gone and worn past before you noticed a dramatic loss in cutting performance. So now that we have a idea of what the edge looks like we can talk about the effects of steeling. When you steel a dulled edge your performing a action called burnishing, its actually a lot like running a stick down the edge of a clay bar. Your compressing and molding the metal back into a V shape.
Smooth steels and grooved steels both work by brunishing but the grooved steel also has a hammering or peening effect to the edge. The peaks of the grooves put higher amounts of force at a given point of the edge makiing the action faster. Burnishing and peening both have a surface hardening effect to metal, this can be a good thing for a softer kitchen type knife but not so good for a knife with a higher Rc.
While this method works and is quick its not what I consider proper. (this is my opinion) When a edge becomes damaged from use the metal at the edge has become fatigued and softened from the stresses it has encountered. Now when you steel the edge you are causing more fatigue on already fatigued metal to reshape the edge, its something that has never sounded right to me. Though there is a factor of hardening from burnishing I'm no scientists so I can't say how well it works or if it works at all to bring the metal back to its proper level of performance. I can say that from my experience I have never found a steel to be that effective and more like a hack way of putting off the use of a abrasive to properly reform the edge. Ever notice how a person that steels a edge does it often?
I don't use a steel because of the action that is taking place, I have always found better performance results from using a abrasive to correct the damage that has occurred than to try and reshape fatigued metal prolonging actual sharpening. I guess I've just never been the type to say "well it works"
First you need to understand what a steel does and the different effects of a smooth vs grooved steel. Before that though you need to understand what really happens to the edge during use. The common mis-conception is that there are shark like teeth that get bent and folded thus making the edge dull, this explanation however is far from the truth. Edge dulling happens from abrasion, compression, and lateral force applied to the edge. Imagine a knife edge on a large scale say the size of a surf board, now imagine taking a hammer and beating the crap out of it in all directions then dragging it through a bed of rocks. The end result is a edge that has suffered from abrasion and plastic deformation, and any "teeth" that were there were long gone and worn past before you noticed a dramatic loss in cutting performance. So now that we have a idea of what the edge looks like we can talk about the effects of steeling. When you steel a dulled edge your performing a action called burnishing, its actually a lot like running a stick down the edge of a clay bar. Your compressing and molding the metal back into a V shape.
Smooth steels and grooved steels both work by brunishing but the grooved steel also has a hammering or peening effect to the edge. The peaks of the grooves put higher amounts of force at a given point of the edge makiing the action faster. Burnishing and peening both have a surface hardening effect to metal, this can be a good thing for a softer kitchen type knife but not so good for a knife with a higher Rc.
While this method works and is quick its not what I consider proper. (this is my opinion) When a edge becomes damaged from use the metal at the edge has become fatigued and softened from the stresses it has encountered. Now when you steel the edge you are causing more fatigue on already fatigued metal to reshape the edge, its something that has never sounded right to me. Though there is a factor of hardening from burnishing I'm no scientists so I can't say how well it works or if it works at all to bring the metal back to its proper level of performance. I can say that from my experience I have never found a steel to be that effective and more like a hack way of putting off the use of a abrasive to properly reform the edge. Ever notice how a person that steels a edge does it often?
I don't use a steel because of the action that is taking place, I have always found better performance results from using a abrasive to correct the damage that has occurred than to try and reshape fatigued metal prolonging actual sharpening. I guess I've just never been the type to say "well it works"
That's very interesting. I wonder how much of all of this has to do with technique. I rely quite a bit on ceramics, and have a lot of success with them. My experience with waterstones and belgian coticules has been uniformly negative (except with my edgepro), yet I freely admit that in the right hands they produce a superior edge. Just not with me.
I've seen a lot of Yukuza's pictures, and yes, the ceramics appear to gall and "smear" the edge more than others, yet I get superior results from them. Hmmm... Maybe I'll start a thread on what shouldn't work - but does....
I've also gotten great results stropping on both loaded and plain leather strops. Supposedly naked leather doesn't do much of anything, but it's a big difference on my knives and razors...
Shrugging my shoulders, pulling out my edgepro.
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That's very interesting. I wonder how much of all of this has to do with technique. I rely quite a bit on ceramics, and have a lot of success with them. My experience with waterstones and belgian coticules has been uniformly negative (except with my edgepro), yet I freely admit that in the right hands they produce a superior edge. Just not with me.
I've seen a lot of Yukuza's pictures, and yes, the ceramics appear to gall and "smear" the edge more than others, yet I get superior results from them. Hmmm... Maybe I'll start a thread on what shouldn't work - but does....
I've also gotten great results stropping on both loaded and plain leather strops. Supposedly naked leather doesn't do much of anything, but it's a big difference on my knives and razors...
Shrugging my shoulders, pulling out my edgepro.
I have to echo some of these sentiments. I think there are way too many variables when it comes to sharpening. Even if we all set some limitations to work within (grind angle, edge geometry, steel type, heat treat, etc.) I think there would still be disagreement on what is "best"...especially considering how differently we all use our edges (and how we gauge performance).
I am still wrapping my head around H-1 and how significantly it does or does not "work harden".
That all sounds about right as far as steeling goes. I now view it as a brute force way of getting a useful edge back until a proper sharpening can be done. The thing that surprised me is how well it works and how long it can work, and how little actual wear happens to a knife edge as opposed to rolling and deformation.
What do you find works better than ceramics for edge holding? Diamond stones or a strop? Of course the strop could be loaded with diamonds as well, especially in your case.
What do you find works better than ceramics for edge holding? Diamond stones or a strop? Of course the strop could be loaded with diamonds as well, especially in your case.
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Steeling main object isn't remove metal.
The idea of steeling is to reform the metal back in the shape of an edge, although they can be used to deburr after sharpening.
Steeling helps prolong the life of an edge, but also significantly weakens it.
Here's a scenario.
You've been chopping up a storm with you knife, and you see it's noticibly duller than when you started.
This isn't due to the edge little grinding away, but the metal being bent out of place.
Now do you grab a stone or a chefs steel.
Both will get you to sharp, but in different ways.
The chef steels is faster than the stone, won't give you as long lasting of an edge since all it does is bend the steel back into place (or break a burr off).
The stone is slower, but will give you a NEW edge that will last longer.
Edit: Chances are you'll get a sharper edge with the stone, but the time lost isn't worth it in a working environment.
That's why chefs use steels instead of stones time is money they can get more done faster with a chef steel than with a stone. They then use the stone in their free time.
Edit 2: Also I haven't been on in a while guys glad to be back
.
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I didn't say they were not effective, ceramics are very effective and produce extremely sharp polished edges. However, though repeated sharpening and cutting of two different steels I found the edge that was finished on the ceramic showed noticeable loss in edge retention, larger deformations, and was more prone to edge rolling.
This is probably not something the average user would ever notice, its also something you would need to be looking for to notice it. Its also something most would never even think to care about because it sounds pointless. Pointless to some meaningful to others....
Steeling is faster? I guess that depends on the compared sharpening media. For me 1 or 2 strokes per side on a EEF DMT will restore a edge and do it in the same amount of time or less, plus be sharper with a more durable cutting edge. Technology has advanced along with what we know, the steel is just a bad habit we can't kick. Like me2 said, we could probably write more on all the bad info than the good.
This is probably not something the average user would ever notice, its also something you would need to be looking for to notice it. Its also something most would never even think to care about because it sounds pointless. Pointless to some meaningful to others....
Steeling is faster? I guess that depends on the compared sharpening media. For me 1 or 2 strokes per side on a EEF DMT will restore a edge and do it in the same amount of time or less, plus be sharper with a more durable cutting edge. Technology has advanced along with what we know, the steel is just a bad habit we can't kick. Like me2 said, we could probably write more on all the bad info than the good.
- Joined
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