Why tanto?

Great thread.

Couger made some intesting points about optimum angle and arrowheads.

I think the optimum angle is not overlooked by knifemakers. If I examine the angles at the tip of various knives I find similarity.

For example If I lay my BM brend talon blade over a BM Emerson chisel, the angle at which the edge moves away from the tip is the same, until we get to the corner of course. In fact the slope of the spine leading to the tip is right there too.

Anyway, when it comes to penetration with an arrow there's a variable. An arrow developes energy along the entire length of the shaft. When you nail a deer from the side through the ribs and lungs, you don't get a knock down like you might expect with a slug. Instead the energy along the shaft drives the arrow entirely through the deer, who then walks 20- 40 yards before collapsing. Great penetration due to developed energy.

But, a hand held and thrusted tanto at 9" OAL will not develop this kind of energy. The thrust may not in a straight line and the way the knife is held in the hand may not be in line with the thrust, thus striking the target at a funny angle.

Just some thoughts.

As for that brute the big Specwar, instead of thrusting you could just hack his arm off with the damn thing.

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Regards,
Ron Knight

Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
 
As far as penetration of tantos go, I have a few observations I'd like to add to theee quagmire. Being that the the tanto blade usually does not curve or has a bally, the rest of the knife easily fits into the hole originally created by the tip of the knife when it penetrates an object.

On objects such as car doors, the tanto tip punched through the sheet metal and the rest of the blade easily follow siut with little resistance, while more conventional knives have a longer initial resistance curve (okay, it sounds like bs, but what I am trying to say is that the knife has to penetrate further in order to make a hole large enough to let the rest of the blade pass through). This effect could give the impression that the tanto penetrates easier when in reality the amount of resistance is greater, but the time that there is resistance less. I wish I could come up with a suitable analogy for this effect, but I am lacking in caffiene right now so I might have to come back and make one later.

What I am trying to say is that a clip point or drop point with a somewhat more acute point will initiate a hole in sheetmetal easier than he somewhat more obtuse tanto tip, but to make that hole large enough for the rest of the knife to pass through, a larger proportion of the blade has to cut through the medium as compared to a tanto, where very little of the blade has to pass through the sheet metal in order for the rest of the blade to pass.

My apologies for adding confusement.

YeK

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Yekim, I follow your point well (pun intended). With belly, the clip or drop pointed blade gets wider from the point than a tanto which, as you say is pretty much straight from the point back. This means that the bellied blade has to continue cutting a hole to get in, while the tanto has only the initial point. As I am neither a soldier nor a "wannabe" having got that out of my system years ago in my twenties, I choose knives for my real life uses. That is except Bowies. For those, I have too much fantasy/affection (see my prior post). My current uses do not include car doors or armored persons. I hike, camp, and street carry. For hiking and camping, my favorite is an old (1961) Randall 6" Hunter's Bowie with the false edge sharpened. I just looked at it and the blade thickness continues well up into the clip point area. I have used it to open cans of varying weight, but never oil drums. It has done all that I have ever asked of it. Once, when hunting. I had to dispatch a wounded deer and used it to cut the animal's throat. It left the head barely attached. If I were to carry a fighting knife, I would probaby carry a Randall No. 1, as history and use have shown it to be most effective. As for folders, I gave my son a CS tanto as that is what he wanted, but neither of us was ever able to adequately resharpen the point once he had dulled it. Maybe I am just clumsy, but I have never had that problem with another knife.
 
Yekim,

YOu're definitely right. If you're punching through just one layer of something -- like a car door or drum -- it's one big push then it's through with a tanto. The point may be too high to transfer energy perfectly, and it may take one *big* push, but once it's through it's through. A more tapered point sees resistance over more of the thrust, even though total resistance might feel lower.

The tanto's penetration problems become more readily apparent when you jam it into something solid all the way through. Jam it into a phone book, when that thick tanto point has to not just pierce one page but continue piercing page after page, and the tanto's penetration problems are easily seen versus a more tapered (and centered) point.


Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Well, I've certainly done my share of tanto-bashing, but I was recently posting on a slightly different subject when I was reminded of one particular tanto that I do use, abuse, and appreciate. I'd like to bring to your attention the Newt Livesay 'WOO' neck knife. This is a little 1/8" hunk of 1095 that's about 7 1/4" long with a 2 7/8" blade, standard American tanto single-cut, with a kydex neck sheath. I got it at the last Soldier of Fortune show, and I paid under $20 (price is a little fuzzy, since it was a multi-knife deal). Soon after I got it home I did a parachute-cord wrap of the metal handle to give it a little more grip.
Now - why do I like this knife? It's about the best little yard-knife I've seen. It does fairly well for light pruning, very good for cutting roots through the sand, fairly well for digging, and makes a really fine pry-bar and rock-stabber! The thing started off butt-ugly, so I'm not afraid to beat it up. If something needs REALLY whacked, I've used a hammer on the spine and handle, and it worked well as a chisel. The kydex neck sheath keeps it pretty handy, and I feel I'm well prepared in case I'm attacked by a malevolent praying mantis, which is about the most dangerous thing you'll find in a Las Vegas yard. In fact, it's replaced my previous favorite, the CS Bushman, as a yard-knife (implement?), as I feel it's a better pry-bar.
Now that I've done the unthinkable, and actually said something GOOD about a TANTO - I really feel better for having gotten that off my chest. Now I can go back to tanto-bashing like I know I should!


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Joe....

I was gonna say that
smile.gif
...but you have done a better job than I felt I could at the time.

I would also like to add that this is a similar situation to punching through the chest of a boar, with the ribcage and meat of the chest being an intital barrier, and the inside being relatively soft and not offering much resistance. Cobalt's Boar test results may not be as astonishing as they initially seem.

Whatever the case may be, it would seem that just about any steel object with a pointy tip would do the trick in an unarmored fight, being that the force needed will be easily made because of the speed need to make such a strike.

Tantos have their place, I like having a straight edge for some cutting chores, and I do not think the tanto is as specialized as the sheepsfoot. Ant it can be made to work, I think Darrel Ralph got it right with the Krait, giving the tanto a bend whichvirtually eliminates most of the complaints about the tanto. It dropped the point, and gave it a belly while retaining a strong tip. It would be neat to see how a fixed blade in this style performed.

YeK

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"No, it's a Vaquero Grande in my pocket, but I am happy to see you!"
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Agree on the Krait's blade, it's great. The point is dropped, which removes my objections about control and transfer of force. It kinda has a belly, and the slight recurve makes it cut like crazy. Darrel and Les know their stuff, knife-design wise.

I must admit, though, I like a point that penetrates a touch easier, especially for an everyday carry. Completely ignoring the philosophy of point design for fighting for a minute ... For most utility work, I find I like my points really sharp. I'm going through soft things, usually, but want to do so with control and precision. I need the point to penetrate effortlessly so I don't cut whatever is on the other side (or whatever).

I have a drop-point blade made by Elishewitz that has a tanto grind at the point. Exact same point strength as a tanto, but slightly dropped point for control, and a nice curving belly. But despite all these nice features, I found the strong tanto-style point didn't pierce quite the way I wanted, so it eventually got retired for my AFCK.

Anyway, the point is, sometimes piercing isn't just about blasting through, it's about cutting effortlessly with control and precision!

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Joe, Cougar

As a long time tanto basher, I agree with everything you guys are saying.

One thing I have recently noted, however is almost amazing slashing capabilities of a
chisel ground, RJ Martin Kwaiken of mine.

This particular Kwaiken is 5" of A2 blade in a Hartsfield style. It has a "zero" grind from bevel to sharp with no secondary edge bevel.

It slashes like knives 1/2 as thick. Through meat, cardboard, etc etc.

I have noticed some reasons why

1)The extremely acute edge.(duh)
2)The squared tip makes contacting your target with substantial blade surface area a cinch.

With the 1/4" blade spine, this thing is practically indestructible. I agree, I wouldnt want to use it as a general purpose blade, or as a game gutter. However, its amazing performance on hard to slice materials like leather, sinewy venison roast,
and even cardboard leave me with a greater appreciation of some of this tantos anti-personnel attributes.

So I guess what Im saying is, the main advantages I see with this knife is the awesome slashing/slicing power through tough materials. It rivals the damage of a good recurve blade 1/2 its thickness, with a much stronger grind.

I can also say, this is the only chisel ground knife I have used that has ever cut worth a damn.




[This message has been edited by Anthony Lombardo (edited 22 February 1999).]
 
Im Having huge computer problems,

But I was going talk about the awesome performance of a ne RJ Martin Kwaiken.
5" chisel ground in the Hartsfield fashion.

This thing is the most impressive slasher for a 5" knife I have ever seen.
Its a lousy penetrator.
But shen slashing cardboard, dead deer, leather etc. This thing is awesome.

Why?
Very acute edge, supported by .250 thick stock. Squared off tip makes contact easy in a slash, and acts as a sweet spot.

Im not saying tantos are good for anything but making an absolute mess of what you are slashing. In that specialized realm, this chisel ground one really shines. I used several much thinner blades with recurves and belly.They cut well, just not as devastating a "wound channel"

Something to think about

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++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anthony P. Lombardo
-will destroy knives for
food-
 
Why do we always have to get our egos and pride in on these discussions?Why do we always have to bash what we don't personaly like or use or worse yet what some so called experts or popular people say we shouldn't like?I have seen numerous people bash useful designs and steels on these forums, even to the various manufacturers present on these forums, just because they or someone they listen to does not have a need at the moment for that design. Then they tout designs that I have found to be weak, that they harden to the point of brittleness all in the name of edge holding, and that there are already too many of and that could easily be replaced by a $1.99 Stanley razor knife.I just hope that regardless of what the manufacturers hear from the "crowd" that some know that there is a need for knives that are strong including the point(what many call "abuse" is what the normal working man's knife has to do every day,and the normal working man is not always represented by great numbers on computers),that sharpen easily to a very sharp edge and that are available in different shapes and styles to suit the job.I wonder sometimes if the average Joe out there (sometimes incorrectly refered to as sheeple) that buys a cheap drugstore brand knife does so because they are cheap and they don't know any better like some say or if they do it because a lot of the more expensive stuff out there is no better than the cheap stuff where it really matters.
I like the tanto for some uses and consider it an excellent utility blade for my work but I also know it has limitations like any other design.I have broken the tips off some knives that are highly spoken of so I appreciate the tip strength but the secondary point is highly usefull for a number of utility uses.I guess I use the tanto like a sheepsfoot with a point.You can control the depth of the cut almost as well with the secondary point on the tanto as you can with the point of a sheepsfoot.This can be important when you are cutting tape off a wire splice,cutting insulation off a wire, cutting a box without cutting what's inside, etc. Plus you have a primary point for deep penetration. The tanto,particularly the chisel ground tanto which many like to bash, is very good at removing gaskets, woodwork, and other utility uses.
 
m,

I'll vouch for the gasket removal abilities of my stiff KISS...
smile.gif
...

YeK

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"Will Dremel for Food!!"
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M, who do you think is "Bashing"? I asked the question in order to learn, and that I have indeed done. The other contributors to the thread, while expressing strong opinions, seem to be intent on teaching. Is this not what the forum is for?
 
FullerH-
I was not calling asking a genuine question like you were doing "bashing".Please forgive me if I made it sound like that.
 
Anthony --

Yeah, a well-done chisel-ground tanto is different still! Now we lose a lot of the point strength of the reinforced-tanto, but it cuts very aggressively because the edge is so thin (I think you'll find it's the thin edge more than the secondary point that really increases slashing power, at least at those times you don't always hit right on the secondary point -- are you sure a chisel-ground drop point wouldn't slash as well?). That thin edge is easily damaged, but it cuts incredibly well. It's practically a different beast from the Americanized tanto! Still has its plusses and minuses.

I've used the chisel-ground tantos -- at least the ones ground on the right side -- with a ruler as a guide, to get perfectly straight cuts. I don't do this often enough to actually want to carry a chisel-ground anything, but it's nice when you want it.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
I do like one particular tanto that you might check out Fuller.it is called the kubon by cold steel.extremely light and thin with a kydex sheath that makes it ride close and worn inside the pants like an inside the pants holster(well,almost).relatively cheap as well..check it out
 
Fuller H; some of us can sing BOTH the Jim Bowie AND the Have gun will travel (Paladin) theme:

Jim Bowie, Jim Bowie, he was a bold adventerous man/
Jim Bowie, Jim Bowie, battled for right with a powerful hand/
His blade was tempered, and so was he/
Indestructable steel was he.......

'Have Gun, Will Travel' reads the card of a man/
A knight without armor in a savage land/
His fast gun for hire greets the calling wind/
A soldier of fortue is the man called Paladin...

Well, for the two of you who managed to get through that; I hope one of you is Joe Talmadge.

Joe; why does the tanto point NOT appear on real (Nihonto) tantos? It is a very common point on tachi and katanas, but seldom seen on wakizashi, and I do not ever recall seeing a tanto point on a genuine tanto?

Thanks, Walt
 
Joe-

It really is a different beast altogether.
The keen edge is one aspect of the excellent slash ability, but I also feel the secondary point allows some slop in your "aim" on target.

I am presently discussing the making of a chisel ground recurve, small fighter, with a well known maker.

I will get back to you with the results.

This knife won't be worth a snot as a utilty blade fer sure, but should shine in the "go nuts slashing your adversary" school of knife fighting.
 
I would be very interested in hearing more about the occurance of what I'm going to call the "American" tanto point in historical Japanese weaponry. For purposes of clarity of communication, I'm going to define the "American" tanto point as totally lacking in belly and being the point that results when two straight line bevels meet at enough of an angle to form a secondary point.

I'm very definitely no Japanese sword expert, and thus my question. I've only seen one line drawing of the type of point that I would call the "Americanized" tanto from my scant research into period designs. It was a drawing of a "chokuto" from a 6th century burial ground in Higo.

Perhaps it's my sheer ignorance of this field, but all the other Japanese "tanto" points that I've seen referenced have had far more graceful pointed points where the differing grinds come together in arcs rather than planes.

One data point: from one book I've got it mentions that one so-called defect of the "bull-necked" point of the ikubi-zaki (looks vaguely like "American" tanto) was that when the tip broke it had to be reground to expose the softer core steel. (My take on that is that if the point did break, the result of a regrind would be virtually useless due to the softer core.)

BTW-- If you've made it this far, I was actually singing along with the "Have Gun will Travel.... " ;-)

Cheers,
mps
 
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