why the cho creep?

C

christcl

Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Messages
438
Not trying to be critical, but why is it that the kami seem to love moving up the cho so high. I mean, I am fine with the khuks as they are, the extra inch or so of blunt steel can come in handy if the hand slips, but I have to agree with some fellas here that the cho creep kinda detracts from tradition. And if I can comment on the hanshee prototype, I think alot of forumites who ordered didn't want any cho creep and habaki bolster, the model they sent didn't have it, yet the prototype they made came with it! I understand that the kamis work hard and have it a hell of a lot hard than we do, but I don't think it is wrong for loyal customers to ask for an as close to spec order.

Any thoughts? Is it really easier or quicker to have cho creep? Or maybe is it just habit? Since it seems to be a concern to many and even I am starting to notice. Again, no offence intended. Just my observations.
 
i know it shouldnt be there when you ask for it to not be there, but i dont mind it myself.
i just consider it part of the HI uniqueness.
 
i kinda agree that its part of HI... more likely then not on a large chopper, your not going to need that extra inch of blade, since its going to be softer metal, and away from the sweet spot, but when it starts getting accessive... you really have to call into question what the use of the extra full thickness metal really is. the only thing i can think of is to move that weak spot in the blade design closer to the point of impact to maybe decrease the chance of the blade snapping there?

does having the cho closer to the handle increase the likely hood of breakage at that point, comparitively to farger along the blade edge?
 
I think the reason may be because of us western people generally having much larger hands than the Nepalese.
Bill has instilled in the kamis the need for much larger handles on their khuk's coming to Nevada for sale to folks all over the world.
Many people, like Danny, don't seem to mind the cho creep and the extra length it gives them from the sharp area of the blade and in a way I can't say that I blame them.
But that's with today's straight handles that sets the new khuks way different than the older models.
The old khuks had very curved handles that with the center ring locked your hand very securely when you gripped it. Yea they were short but you didn't need anymore handle as your hand was locked into place!!!!
It also didn't matter that the cho was within an 1/8"-1/4" of the bottom of the very short bolster for the same reason. Your hand was absolutely Not Going To Slip!!!!:D

My prettied up Foxy Folly has a much improved handle since I thinned it down on its sides and put as much curve as I possibly could on the bottom while slightly reworking the top side with a little more curve. It also has a more pronounced egg shape like the old khuks; if you were to cut the handle through from top to bottom.
My two old Warhorses that I got from AC have handles so short that even my 4 3/8" wide, when gripping their handles, hand overlaps the top of the handle.
I would have absolutely no fear in using either one of these khuks for any task I put them to as my hand is locked in so securely I know for absolute certain that they're not gonna slip!!!!:D :cool:
But it takes more time and trouble to make the curved handles. I know this from experience. However I would gladly pay $50.00 more for a brand new khuk with the old style handle on it but YMMV.
I prefer the traditional ways but then I'm a traditional ndn so what did you expect?:p ;)
 
Exactly how is the cho made?

What I'm wondering is, I'm thinking that they drive some sort of punch or die through the blade. You'd need to support the blade, and you'd need to hold it still. Wouldn't this be easier if the part you're pounding is nearer to the center of the blade? They're not punching the cho after attaching the handle, are they?

Probably you swing the hammer with your right hand, hold the punch against the blade with your left, and hold the blade on the anvil with, let's see, gravity, but we'll need to nearly center the blade on the anvil to make that work...

I'm just guessing.
 
FallingKnife said:
Exactly how is the cho made?

What I'm wondering is, I'm thinking that they drive some sort of punch or die through the blade.

I'm just guessing.
Click to expand...
Yep, just guessing for sure.;)

The Nepali kami's made them close to the bolster for a thousand years and the lazy HI kamis are starting to put 'em in the center of the blade.:rolleyes: :(
 
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/kami10.jpg

by that picture, it appears as though it would be pretty hard to forge an edge close to the tang...

all i really want to know, is are they increasing the length because of performance, ease of forging/making, or aesthetic... if its performance, or ease of forging, i can live with a fair amount of cho creep (within limits), but if its just for aesthetic appeal, more blade length is rarely a bad thing if you already have the length there to work with.
 
The subject of cho creep is interesting to me in that no one really knows for sure what is happening and why. Things normally do not happen without reason. I can't see the Kamis moving the cho around for kicks.

As usual, what Yvsa says has a lot of truth- tighter fitting handles do seem to lock better. But there is a rub- some handles are too short and I have to remove the points of the butt caps in order to use the khuk without pain. Likewise, the rings do hold the hand- but some rings are better situated for me than others. A tighter handle limits some adaptation. And how do you make a tighter handle for the range of handsize across the globe? And we have the problems of too small and narrow a handle or too large a diameter to fit everyone.

If you look at it like that- the Kamis do a pretty good job fitting most of us. In a perfect world, we'd look over khuks on Bill's wall, and after trying on several select the one which fit us best.
I still don't know why there is cho creep.

munk
 
But I do note on my older HI khuks (Sanu YCS in particular) that the cho is where it should be. On the newer ones, well, I don't really have a pile of new ones.

Seems to me they put the cho at a location that intersects with the downward curve of the upper blade bevel(grind) as it meets the edge. So mebbe they use the khuk's grind to determine where to put the cho.

Keith
 
That would indicate that they aren't forging them/grinding them the way they should then...so Yvsa's comment on the lazy kamis is correct...
 
does having the cho closer to the handle increase the likely hood of breakage at that point, comparitively to farger along the blade edge?

A discontinuity in the blade (i.e., a hole) should not affect the chances of having the blade break in that location near as much as the hardness of the steel. It does make the area weaker, but should not be significant given expected usage and material.

Maybe I'm a little out of line here, but summing it up by saying the kamis are being lazy is a little presumptuous, isn't it? Like other "engineers", they seem to want to do what they want to do vs. what is requested of them. Maybe I missed it, but I don't understand what would lead one to believe they're lazy.

--Rip
 
christcl said:
I understand that the kamis work hard and have it a hell of a lot hard than we do, but I don't think it is wrong for loyal customers to ask for an as close to spec order.
Click to expand...
This is precisely why Bill hates special orders. Has for a long time....not just recently.

My guess is that he's just tired of dealing with it. There was probably a time when it was just "cute"....but now it's downright aggravating.


Think of this too....they're putting out hundreds of khukuris...all day long...every day. Somebody tosses a design in the pile and says "Make this". If you spent your entire day/week/month/whatever making habaki-style bolsters, why would you suddenly stop?

If Bill could be there in person to give directions, everything would go much smoother - he's said it himself. However, that's no longer possible. :(
 
SethMurdoc said:
does having the cho closer to the handle increase the likely hood of breakage at that point, comparitively to farger along the blade edge?
Click to expand...
I bet that's it.
In the mind of the kamis.

Maybe Bura said,
---OK guys, you've been splashing water onto the tang
and causing tangs to break;
We're going to move the edge away from the tang
so it's not so easy to make that mistake.---

If so, we're more likely to see cho creep continue
until the those kamis learn to shield the tang
while doing the heat treat.

Ultimately the cho will reach the tip of the blade
and make the khuk look like a shark sticking out its tongue.
:rolleyes:
 
DDean quote...........

Maybe Bura said,
---OK guys, you've been splashing water onto the tang
and causing tangs to break;
We're going to move the edge away from the tang
so it's not so easy to make that mistake..................................................................


I reckon you just hit the nail on the head DDean! Pity Pala doesnt chase them up!

Still I guess piecework workers in all countrys will always cut corners, if there no one enforcing wage loss for poor quality control.

Spiral
 
My "off the wall" guess is that between the bolster and cho is where they put their marks. Add the habaki bolster and you gotta move the cho further forward to get the mark in behind the cho on the softer part of the blade. :confused: :confused:
 
I'm glad to see a frank discussion of the cho creep, it's been bugging me for a while. We all just want our khuks to be the best possible. Those are my kami mark pics, I'm not sure it's representative since the height and angle may vary. I need to do another survey sometime.

Note also the signatures have gotten larger lately, adding the initials first and then recently the little sun mark. It's not a bad thesis but who really knows. We need an anthropology grad student to go do a field study :D

There also could be some change in tools or procedure that is causing the cho creep. Some different tool to hold the blade when the cho is added? We've seen the same type of changes before, in the edges for example when the modern grinders were added to the shop.
 
You think there's any possibility that apprentice/helpers put in the cho? Bura hasn't been pounding a lot of steel as I remember, and maybe a semi-finished form handed to one of the kamis, complete with cho is part of the process?

Dunno.

Or...is the cho put in, before or after the handle rat-tail is formed? If before, then it might be a function of whoever puts the handle spine into form.

Is it happening with chiruwas as well? If so, maybe they have some rough measurement of where the placement will go, i.e. "one-third, one-fourth, etc," the length of the blade.

Again, dunno.

(edit: It sure was conspicuous on the 12 AK villagers this week!)

Kis
 
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