- Joined
- Jun 23, 2006
- Messages
- 2,413
I've been thinking about this thread and reading the replies and trying to find the best way to put my thoughts down here. I want to address Ed's first post because I think it has driven a lot of the discussion since. I'm not going to come on here and tell anyone that I've made more knives than X or that I'm better than Y, it's most likely that I haven't and I'm not. I do, however, want to offer a counter position. Take it as you will, I recommend taking it with a grain of salt like all other internet posts.
As to the toughness of carbon steels over stainless, I do agree that they are going to be tougher, but they will be tougher with a fully hardened blade as well. That being said, stainless steels can be heat treated such that they will bend and take a set, as well as take a fine edge. Most of the stainless knives I had in years past would bend rather than break. That being said, I don't believe that I knife should be purpose built to do so, I do honestly believe that you're using the wrong tool if you need to put enough force on a knife to put a set in it and I would not warranty such use nor expect it in a "life or death" situation.
On the subject of edge geometry, let me give some anecdotal experience: I've seen many a stainless knife filet paper and massacre arm hairs by the hundreds. Although I do not protest that a carbon steel may be able to take a finer edge, I simply ask does it need to be finer than what can be achieved with stainless steels? I sharpen my kitchen knives on a sharp maker, I don't even bother using the ceramic stick, I just put them on the steel and cut away - the flesh doesn't seem to know the difference. What level of precision cutting do we need that we can't reach with these steels?
I can't speak for Karl on the sharpening aspect, but I will say that I offer to sharpen all of my knives (even the carbon steel ones ) for life. It's my opinion that some clients just can't get the same kind of edge that we can and they would rather have the maker do it. I do agree that many stainless knives are more difficult to sharpen if a client does not maintain the knife, but I tell them up front that my knives are likely to be more difficult to sharpen than the factory knives they are used to, even the carbon steel ones. If a person properly maintains their edge, I don't feel that they will be terribly inconvenienced, no matter what steel they use.
As far as the geometry of the grind is concerned, there is no reason that a maker can't grind their stainless knives thinner, I have ground many quick and thin stainless knives without a hitch. I do not believe in "purpose" grinding knives that aren't commissioned or designed for a specific task because you just don't know what the end user will do with it. I hollow grind some knives and flat grind others, if you decided to ask me why, I'd probably tell you because that's what the knife asked me to do. At the end of last year I sent out a 3/16" 1084 hunter that was ground on an 8" wheel - the knife has been used by the fellow who I made for as well as several of his buddies. To the best of my knowledge, it's been used on over a dozen animals thus far and has had nothing but rave reviews from all who have used it. Would it be more popular if I'd flat ground it? Or maybe if I'd used a 14" wheel? Perhaps a 4"? I don't know, I don't even know for sure what he's going to do with the knife, I only know that it's a "hunting knife". Once the knife leaves my shop, I have no control over what it cuts or how it is used to cut. I also have no control over edge geometry. I could send the knife with a hollow ground edge and the customer could stone it to a convex. I could send it with a convex edge and find out he's sharpening on one of those wet sharpening stone machines or that he's putting a flatter edge on it with a sharp maker. Instead of worrying about that, I simply make the knife the way it tells me it would like to be made and if it doesn't work out then I make a different one.
For what it's worth, he asked me how he should sharpen it and I told him sharpen it however you sharpen your other knives, that's what you know works best. I also told him that he can send it back to me any time for sharpening if he was so inclined.
We can all go on and on about what we know and like, but at the end of the day it's a choice that's made by the maker, the customer and the knife. That's how I see it anyway.
As to the toughness of carbon steels over stainless, I do agree that they are going to be tougher, but they will be tougher with a fully hardened blade as well. That being said, stainless steels can be heat treated such that they will bend and take a set, as well as take a fine edge. Most of the stainless knives I had in years past would bend rather than break. That being said, I don't believe that I knife should be purpose built to do so, I do honestly believe that you're using the wrong tool if you need to put enough force on a knife to put a set in it and I would not warranty such use nor expect it in a "life or death" situation.
On the subject of edge geometry, let me give some anecdotal experience: I've seen many a stainless knife filet paper and massacre arm hairs by the hundreds. Although I do not protest that a carbon steel may be able to take a finer edge, I simply ask does it need to be finer than what can be achieved with stainless steels? I sharpen my kitchen knives on a sharp maker, I don't even bother using the ceramic stick, I just put them on the steel and cut away - the flesh doesn't seem to know the difference. What level of precision cutting do we need that we can't reach with these steels?
I can't speak for Karl on the sharpening aspect, but I will say that I offer to sharpen all of my knives (even the carbon steel ones ) for life. It's my opinion that some clients just can't get the same kind of edge that we can and they would rather have the maker do it. I do agree that many stainless knives are more difficult to sharpen if a client does not maintain the knife, but I tell them up front that my knives are likely to be more difficult to sharpen than the factory knives they are used to, even the carbon steel ones. If a person properly maintains their edge, I don't feel that they will be terribly inconvenienced, no matter what steel they use.
As far as the geometry of the grind is concerned, there is no reason that a maker can't grind their stainless knives thinner, I have ground many quick and thin stainless knives without a hitch. I do not believe in "purpose" grinding knives that aren't commissioned or designed for a specific task because you just don't know what the end user will do with it. I hollow grind some knives and flat grind others, if you decided to ask me why, I'd probably tell you because that's what the knife asked me to do. At the end of last year I sent out a 3/16" 1084 hunter that was ground on an 8" wheel - the knife has been used by the fellow who I made for as well as several of his buddies. To the best of my knowledge, it's been used on over a dozen animals thus far and has had nothing but rave reviews from all who have used it. Would it be more popular if I'd flat ground it? Or maybe if I'd used a 14" wheel? Perhaps a 4"? I don't know, I don't even know for sure what he's going to do with the knife, I only know that it's a "hunting knife". Once the knife leaves my shop, I have no control over what it cuts or how it is used to cut. I also have no control over edge geometry. I could send the knife with a hollow ground edge and the customer could stone it to a convex. I could send it with a convex edge and find out he's sharpening on one of those wet sharpening stone machines or that he's putting a flatter edge on it with a sharp maker. Instead of worrying about that, I simply make the knife the way it tells me it would like to be made and if it doesn't work out then I make a different one.
For what it's worth, he asked me how he should sharpen it and I told him sharpen it however you sharpen your other knives, that's what you know works best. I also told him that he can send it back to me any time for sharpening if he was so inclined.
We can all go on and on about what we know and like, but at the end of the day it's a choice that's made by the maker, the customer and the knife. That's how I see it anyway.
Last edited:
When "grainy" means good thing, because large grains gives shity blades as far as I know. 
