Why tinker with a custom knife?

Kohai999

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
Messages
12,554
I started the Burt Foster thread to show Burt's knives, and how cool they are. Burt was a unique find, because nobody had mentioned his name, nor had his website been checked out before I went to Reno. Starting fresh, as you were. His knives are mindblowing.

Tinkering with custom knives started for me when, being the anal retentive mofo that is, I noticed some rough edges on the handle of a custom knife that I had purchased. This was when I had a retail knife shop in Seattle in 1994, and access to equipment, and some people like Butch and Shawn Vallotton, and Rod Chappel to show me some basics. Smoothing out the edges went easy. My business partner and I then went to work fixing production knives that customers would bring in for repair. Things like a broken tip, or scales. Then we started springing Boker Top Locks for a distributor, and figuring out how to drill through hardened steel, and make our own springs. It is not that we HAD to figure it out all ourselves, we just did not know who or how to ask, we thought it was slightly embarrassing, not knowing how to make a small hole in hardened steel, it seems so simple(Answer, for us, with a 1/16" carbide twist bit, slow speed, lots of cutting fluid).

It really came to a head about 6 years ago, when a well carried custom knife was being retired. I arranged with the maker to refurbish the knife, and sent it to him. He had it for close to 6 months, and sent it back with a note saying that he couldn't do anything with it (I had asked for a new set of scales, really thin, from G-10, and a "refreshing" of the hollow grinds), to his credit, he did offer me a reduction in price for the next knife that I purchased, but still, it did not make up for the loss of time.

If it bothers me, I go into my garage, turn on my grinder or do it by hand, and it is fixed. I know my limitations. If it is to be a complete regrinding of the blade, I can, but am not confident in the results, so if it does not go back to THE maker; it goes back to A maker.

For instance; I have a Tommy Lee Persian Fighter in satin ATS-34 that got a pit in it for a stupid reason. I could not get it out with hand sanding, and Tommy retired years ago, so I was sort of stuck. Bob Crowder reground the pit out, and did it so well, the knife looks untouched. He saved my bacon.

Now, if the handle proportions are out of whack to me, which happens occasionally, I Garssonize it. That is reshape it to suit my needs. MOST collectors would be hard pressed to know that anything was done to it, but occasionally, and I mean, VERY occasionally, a maker will notice a difference. This is not something that I make a big deal of BTW, but I am not keeping any secrets about it either. The knives in my permanent collection will stay there for at least the next 30 years or so, until I get dementia or die. Some will be worth more than they are now, some will be worth less.

When I was talking to Burt yesterday, he VERY favorably made a comparison between Porsche automobiles, and Ruf, a customization house, and the work that I do. The point was that it made the knife different, not necessarily better, but that might be a desirable thing to me, or someone else. I'm not stamping the knives that I work on, or even the ones in my collection with my individual mark, although it has been said in some collecting circles that this can add value to the object. I provide a sheet of paper with all specifics of the knife, and all corroborating documents with a sold or traded knife.

A nihonto(japanese sword) collector can buy a good sword in bad polish(which they frequently are) and do a number of things. They can leave it alone, but will never know its' true beauty, they can send it to a bad polisher and destroy it, or they can send it to a good (and frighteningly expensive) polisher and bring out the "soul" of the blade.

Like I said in my other post, I look for reasons NOT to mess with a knife, but if they are there, so be it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
That is a wonderful post!

I really like the analogy with the Japanese field. I feel the same way a lot. I like to look at work done to Spyderco folders by forumite STR. He does a grate job making them different! Why the heck shouldn't a person do the same with customs, especially when it is a tune-up/refurb/clean up job!
 
Steven,
From what I have seen and read,you do a very professional job modifying your acquisitions,I do admit I was somewhat ambivalent when I heard you had a Don Fogg dirk/dagger/Shiv sharpened further back than he intended.
Before I go any further,thank you(and others) for turning me on to this amazing man! :thumbup:
None of the makers of the knives you modify seem to mind,Burt Foster comes to mind,and I was privy to the info regarding the Don Fogg that you sharpened back further,Don didn't mind.This info was courtesy of Chuck B. as I was bidding on it for Ray R's. auction.Somebody sniped me in the waning hours and I didn't get it.Congratulations to the lucky Bastid! :thumbup:
Jim Cooper seems to think you do fine as well,high enough kudo's for me!
You do things your way and are good at it. :thumbup: :D Doug. IIRC,you turned 40 recently,hope ya' had a good one!
 
Interesting post STeven. I found the discussion on the Foster knife quite informative as well.

Let me start off by stating what should be obvious - the knives you buy are yours to do with as you please.

The aspect of "tinkering" with custom knives that troubles me is this: at what point does the "tinkering" go too far? Is there such a point - or is it always completely answered by the assertion of the owner's right to do with his property as he sees fit?

Knives are functional works of art. When the buyer substantially alters the knife to suit his own aesthetic sense, the result may still be quite artisitic, but is it still the maker's art? Quality knives well cared for will long outlast the original buyer - and maker, for that matter. What is left after we are gone is the knife itself as an artifact of the maker's craft. It will still bear his name, but may well now be a false artifact of his craft if the knife has been modified in a way inconsistent with his artisitic view of lines, proportion, texture and dimension.

Anyone with a bazillion dollars or so (and fortuitous opportunity) can purchase an original Monet. They can hang in on their wall, look at it and say, "Y'know, he nearly got it right, but there are just a few too many damned lillied in that pond for my taste, I think I'll paint a few out." Can he do it? Clearly yes - it was his coin and is now his painting. Should he? Having altered it, can he still legitimately call it a Monet?

STeven, you are forthright to a fault and I accept without reservation that you don't keep a secret your "Garssonizing" of a maker's work. By and large, the alterations you describe seem small, but on some pieces it might well be argued that even one lilly removed or added is too much. I am not a maker and don't have the skill to produce or even modify a custom knife. But if I were a maker, and saw a knife changed to an extent where I thought it no longer reflected my craft (whether the changes were large or small) I might well be inclined to ask you to Garssonize my name off the piece entirely.

Just my thoughts on the matter - I don't pretend to have all the answers, or even to know all the questions.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
When the buyer substantially alters the knife to suit his own aesthetic sense, the result may still be quite artisitic, but is it still the maker's art? Quality knives well cared for will long outlast the original buyer - and maker, for that matter. What is left after we are gone is the knife itself as an artifact of the maker's craft. It will still bear his name, but may well now be a false artifact of his craft if the knife has been modified in a way inconsistent with his artisitic view of lines, proportion, texture and dimension.

Anyone with a bazillion dollars or so (and fortuitous opportunity) can purchase an original Monet. They can hang in on their wall, look at it and say, "Y'know, he nearly got it right, but there are just a few too many damned lillied in that pond for my taste, I think I'll paint a few out." Can he do it? Clearly yes - it was his coin and is now his painting. Should he? Having altered it, can he still legitimately call it a Monet?

But if I were a maker, and saw a knife changed to an extent where I thought it no longer reflected my craft (whether the changes were large or small) I might well be inclined to ask you to Garssonize my name off the piece entirely.

Roger
Click to expand...

Roger,

Extremely well written response! And, I have answers!

1. Having interest in Japanese swords gives me an answer to the first part. When dealing with priceless blades of ancient craft (which I personally do not, BTW, but have handled extensively), you realize, you don't own the sword, but are merely a caretaker, a bridge to the next generation. That is why I made the analogy to the Japanese sword in my initial post. Although we are dealing with something more contemporary here, and although I OWN these knives, I still feel like a caretaker.

2. Paintings are made to be looked at, sculpture is made to be looked at, not used. Start getting into art glass or ceramics, and the purpose starts to shift a little. Knives are made to be used, at least the ones that I buy are. I don't use the vast majority of them, however. I buy them because they give me great satisfaction, and each one teaches me about the art and craft of knives, and maybe a bit about life, even if I do nothing more than gingerly wipe them down with a rust preservative, which is Zen meditation, as much as anything. No oil, no rag, no knife, just self, and the world.:D

3. It can still be called a Monet, but an honest owner/caretaker would document the mods, and it would probably halve the value of the painting, and the next generation would bring in a professional restorer, who would remove the modification of the previous caretaker, and the painting would be a "restored" Monet, now worth only 10% less than a "virgin" Monet if you can find one.;)

4. I have met very few makers who seriously objected to my mods, on the contrary, I am frequently encouraged, with "It's your knife, do what you want." The few that I suspect would squawk, I don't really care. They are in the collection because of various criteria that only work for me, I might not even like or respect that maker in this particular case, but need the work for "the body". These pieces are usually purchased on the secondary market.

As a question to all who would question tinkering/customizing a knife, is not engraving/scrimshaw a serious modification, dramatically changing the look and possibly even performance of the knife? There are many half-assed engravers and scrimshanders out there, that could make a cutlery masterpiece look like a dog, no pun intended. It all seems to work out for me, though.

As an example, tying it all together, I asked Don Fogg at Reno last year to pull the edge back on the Shiv dagger that I donated to the auction for Raymond Richard, personally, face to face. He told me to do it myself, stating that I had the eye and the skills to do it, and that it would teach me something that I did not know. He was right, I started to, and felt like I was doing a good job, but since I decided to donate it (I had gotten The Clouds Bowie (thanks again, Peter!)), and wanted it to retain full value, asked Nick Wheeler to finish it for me. Well, I'll tell you, Nick was glad to, because that meant that he did not have to make a knife for the auction, because he makes so many knives;) and Don was tickled beyond belief. This knife brought the high dollar for the auction, BTW.

The makers most pissed off by my mods are makers that I brought the knives from to USE, and use hard. These knives will be done when I am, little left but half blades from sharpening, and modified handles, they will retain little if any value.

Very thoughtful questions, I hope that I have done them justice with my answers.

Doug, I turn 40 next week, fortuitously, I will be in Reno the day before my b-day!:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Very provocative thread, with some well-thought out questions and answers. Thanks for the intellect. :D

I have a knife coming from my *favorite* maker with a replacement ivory handle scale. In this instance I had to outsource it to another maker. It's not the same scenario, but I will enjoy it immensely when it arrives. The full story and photos once I do. Don't hold your breath.

Reworked customs can and do happen. By choice and necessity. I have a Jack Levin fixed blade I greatly improved with some work by me and Ron Clark, oddly and fortunately enough. I can post before and after to show why.

Good post, Steven. Thanks, Doug. ;)

Coop
 
i am glad to see that my unpolite behaviour towards mr garsson produced this interesting thread as a very positive side effect. i share roger's reservations about modifying a work of art but now understand better mr garsson's reasons to do what he has to. however, i think some ethical rules should be respected when somebody feels an urge to alter a work of art:

1. ask the maker to carry out the modification.

2. if this is not possible (distance, maker retired etc.) try to get his approval of your planned modifications. respect the maker's will! if he asks you to remove his mark, do it!

3. if the maker is deceased, ask yourself whether you act according to the maker's intention. don't forget that you are about to alter somebody's heritage and a tiny little bit of the history of civilization.

4. make sure that your modifications are recognizable as such. use your own mark, initials etc. no papers! future generations of collectors, auctioneers, heirs, experts, historians, archeologists etc. will be extremely thankful (ask an antique dealer or a restorer!).

i hope i don't stir up public opinion too much this time!

brightred
 
I, personally, don't have the skill to modify a knife, but I have purchased knives that were oh so close to what I wanted... and to try and get exactly what I want, I've commissioned other versions of it through other makers...

But as to modifying an existing blade, I kinda look at it like owning a car - Sure, spend a few hundred thousand buying a Ferrari - would you look at the owner the same way after you found out he tricked it out and customized it to his own desires? (Okay, maybe a Ferrari isn't exactly appropriate 'cause even I'd get PO'd if someone altered such a work of Beauty... but ya git my point?!?)

So, once you own it, it's pretty much up to the owner (or I like STeven's concept of 'caretaker') to do what he wants... And if it doesn't work for everybody else? Well, you don't own it, and if it were to show up on the market, you don't have to buy it, either...

And since in this case, STeven has actually broached the subject with the maker, I think he has gone way beyond showing his respect for the original artist...

Now - STeven... How about some pics!!! :D LOL!!!!

And a Happy (early) Birthday to ya!
 
tom mayo said:
Sooooo, are you telling us you are joining the Japanese Sword Polishing Society??? :p
Click to expand...

OT for sure, but I kinda wish I'd met STeven when he was still in Seattle... I came across an older 'tanto' in a second hand shop here in Seattle a few years ago - absolutely the most graceful and well appointed piece I have ever seen... I didn't know anything about it other than it was my ideal form of such a piece... Long story short is I had Michael Bell look at it and had it confirmed as to approximate age, etc... and how much it'd cost to have it polished!!! :eek:

So, I eventually sold it to a knife maker in Oregon who had one like it in shirasaya, and who also took it to Michael to learn about it... and to eventually have it polished...

If I'd known STeven back then, I may have never parted with that piece...and I may have learned a lot more about it and it's history...

But in this case, I can console myself that I was a caretaker for a brief time, and my care has lead it to land in a loving home where it will be properly cared for...

:)
 
tom mayo said:
Sooooo, are you telling us you are joining the Japanese Sword Polishing Society??? :p
Click to expand...

"I know my limitations"

I can't flat grind big blades with a block of wood and sandpaper let alone trying to using stones.

Maybe i'll try fingerstones and nugui someday on gaijiin-to, and then I can step up to Paul Chen......:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
Roger,



1. Having interest in Japanese swords gives me an answer to the first part. When dealing with priceless blades of ancient craft (which I personally do not, BTW, but have handled extensively), you realize, you don't own the sword, but are merely a caretaker, a bridge to the next generation. That is why I made the analogy to the Japanese sword in my initial post. Although we are dealing with something more contemporary here, and although I OWN these knives, I still feel like a caretaker.
Click to expand...

That is the most well thought out belief I have ever seen on BF, and much the way I feel about my blades.

Steven, have you ever felt that you were born in the wrong century and would be more at peace if you had been alive 300 or 400 years ago?

I have always felt I was born in the wrong time period.

Sorry to get off topic, great discussion by everyone.
 
brightred said:
1. ask the maker to carry out the modification.

2. if this is not possible (distance, maker retired etc.) try to get his approval of your planned modifications. respect the maker's will! if he asks you to remove his mark, do it!

3. if the maker is deceased, ask yourself whether you act according to the maker's intention. don't forget that you are about to alter somebody's heritage and a tiny little bit of the history of civilization.
Click to expand...

Brightred,

You and I will have to agree to disagree on the three points listed above.

1. Sometimes I neither want or care to have the maker carry out the modification. If it is a small thing, I will do it myself without compunction. If it is a major overhaul, I WILL consider it, depending on the maker, and my relationship with them. Some makers take six months to turn on the grinder for you, do 10 minutes of polishing, and it costs money both ways to ship. Doing it myself saves me the grief of loss of time and money. That bothers me much more than the makers' feelings about it.

2. Get the makers' approval? Again, for a major deal, I can see your point, but you use your knives, right? Let's say you break the tip off, 1/2". If you want to go through the time and expense of sending it back to the US for a refurbishment, I salute you. Me, personally, I would rather go into the garage, and do it myself. I don't know how many custom knives have passed through your hands, but I have probably owned 500 custom knives in my life, thus far.

3. If the maker is deceased, and you are not, the responsibility (in this case) is dually to yourself and the maker. You seem to be completely removing yourself out of the equation. I am not willing to sublimate my will, ego or skills to that level. The heritage that you alter is yours, as much as the makers. For gun collectors, serious ones, it is quite often who owned and used the gun, rather than who initially made it, at least in the US.

BladeGoblin said:
Steven, have you ever felt that you were born in the wrong century and would be more at peace if you had been alive 300 or 400 years ago?
Click to expand...

No, Anthony, I am quite at peace with the time that I am here, in this body. I am prematurely crusty, and have an antiquated sense of honor, honesty and loyalty. It is rather timeless in the way it propels me to act, rather than talk about. Warriors find their wars, always, just not always in the daily reality they wish for, or think they wish for.

Thank you for the compliment.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Well I have to subscribe on principle to the fact that if you have paid for it, you have every right to do with it as you wish, and given Steven's knowledge, skills and awareness of personal limitations I certainly don't think there would be any danger of compromising the piece functionally. For every day users I don't see any major issue, particulary if the mods suit the intended task better.

But in my heart I tend to agree with Roger as far as higher end customs go, and if I did want any slight changes I would send it back to the maker if possible. The reason for this is two fold, firstly I would not be capable, and secondly, as long as it has the makers stamp on it, it is their creation and to the viewing public a representation of their skill and artistic interpretation - for this reason I believe the maker should be given the opportunity of being involved in the modification of "significant" pieces.

I also think that if a piece is modified by someone other that the original maker, this should be made known to prospective buyers in the secondary market, as I am sure Steven in particular would do.

Stephen
 
First, I would like to differentiate between the working or using knife and a collector type knife. The using knife is to be used and if it needed some alterations to make it more usuable, then modify it to fit. If it is a collector knife that is to be passed on to your heirs or sold at retirement to help augment your income, then I would say to leave it in the original condition, whether you were completely satisfyied or not.
When I was a lot younger, I altered factory knives all the time to fit my needs. I was not into buying and selling knives and they were usually wore out by the time I retired them to the dresser drawer.
when I first started making knives, I wanted all my customers to use them and let me know if they liked them or not. Kind of a paying testor situation. A lot of them didn't use them and some did. The ones that did, usually let me know how well they did and I was grateful for their input.
From what I have heard about collecting items, knives or what ever, it is best to have a professional restore it to original or to just leave it alone and put a little oil on it. I think that what ever you decide to do with yours will depend on your plans for its future.
Forty years ago I was upset with my Dad for depositing all his silver coins into his checking account. Some of us just never know and then some do.
 
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