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Why Use Nonstainless?
- Thread starter me2
- Start date
Several reasons.
First, if you like the look of a traditional patina on a blade.
Second, some traditional high carbon steels like 1075, 1095, and 1095 CV are extraordinarily easy to sharpen and touch up, and respond very well to a wide variety of sharpening techniques. Some common stainless used in kitchen cutlery is a bit "gummy" and forms a floppy wire edge easily, so it takes more skill and a gentler touch to put a fine edge on them.
Third, some of the most advanced, toughest, most wear resistant steels are not stainless. Take CPM M4 for example.
Fourth, among "adequate quality" steels for us knife and sharpening snobs, 1095 is very inexpensive compared to "adequate" stainless. For example, Sandvik stainless steel is about as easy to sharpen as 1095, but a knife in it will cost you 4 times as much or more. An excellent Old Hickory 1095 kitchen knife will run you $10 after shipping, and last several lifetimes if cared for properly.
All that said, there are some things you absolutely want to use stainless for, such as cutting certain fruits, vegetables and meats.
First, if you like the look of a traditional patina on a blade.
Second, some traditional high carbon steels like 1075, 1095, and 1095 CV are extraordinarily easy to sharpen and touch up, and respond very well to a wide variety of sharpening techniques. Some common stainless used in kitchen cutlery is a bit "gummy" and forms a floppy wire edge easily, so it takes more skill and a gentler touch to put a fine edge on them.
Third, some of the most advanced, toughest, most wear resistant steels are not stainless. Take CPM M4 for example.
Fourth, among "adequate quality" steels for us knife and sharpening snobs, 1095 is very inexpensive compared to "adequate" stainless. For example, Sandvik stainless steel is about as easy to sharpen as 1095, but a knife in it will cost you 4 times as much or more. An excellent Old Hickory 1095 kitchen knife will run you $10 after shipping, and last several lifetimes if cared for properly.
All that said, there are some things you absolutely want to use stainless for, such as cutting certain fruits, vegetables and meats.
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- Nov 1, 2005
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gomipile pretty much nailed it, but I'll add a few things with regards to performance of carbon steel in the kitchen. The main advantage is that many Japanese carbon steels used in high end kitchen knives can be taken to very high hardness ratings while maintaining ease of sharpening due to the low carbide volume as well as maintain some degree of toughness. This means that steels such as super blue, and white #1 and #2 as well as a few others can take an EXTREMELY fine edge and hold it at very low inclusive edge angles. In short, you can get some of these Japanese carbon steels absolutely absurdly sharp.
Pretty "Green" avatar there.Looks good!--KV
Economy is a big one that I came up with. I also find an aged patina appealing. Beyond that, one really needstotalk about specific steels. I have found corrosion resistance to be important for edge holding in kitchen knives. I also have edge retention that shows a significant advantage for stainless in wear over comparably priced 52100. Based on performance I dont see a reason for nonstainless in the kitchen. Of course performance isnt the only deciding factor.
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- Mar 20, 1999
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I have the same theory although I am dubious about the handles. Has anyone here ever seen an old Old Hickory that was well cared for? Most I find in resale shops, and there are many available, were obviously well used, but no so obviously cared for.
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- Jun 29, 1999
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Considering that most people, including my wife (43 years) are serial knife abusers, stainless probably makes more sense in the kitchen. I use my high carbon blades when I'm preparing food, but I don't leave them in the kitchen when I'm done.
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- Mar 26, 2004
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When comparing stainless to non-stainless steel, it's always a question of compromises.
To be "stainless", the alloy needs a high amount of chromium, generally accepted to be 13% or more (at least as far as knives go). However, the more chromium added, the more of other elements need to be added to "make up" the difference, and doing such has 2 negative effects. Firstly, adding more carbon to bring hardness back up to snuff means the steel will be more brittle and less flexible (less tough), and secondly all the additional carbon (with other elements) to form carbides (which are extremely hard) make the steel more wear resistant also means it'll be harder to sharpen.
Put in simple terms, carbon steel will be tougher (as in strength, not difficulty) and easier to sharpen than stainless steel. For an extreme example, look at swords or machetes. They need to be strong yet flexible, and able to take an impact. So carbon steel (and usually a lower carbon steel than a knife) is used, because a higher carbon steel, or stainless steel will break/crack/shatter under such use.
When it comes to knives, it usually comes down to ease of sharpening (although larger knives, like bowies, still need to be tough), and often aesthetic reasons. A humble Case pocket knife takes a wickedly sharp edge with ease, holds it well enough to get you through the day (or several), and sharpens very easily once again. Many people also like the way carbon steel takes on a patina, giving a knife age and character. And on larger knives, carbon steel can be differentially hardened, giving the blade a hamon, which can be quite beautiful (as well as a hard edge and flexible spine). Don Fogg can't get a hamon on M390.
To be "stainless", the alloy needs a high amount of chromium, generally accepted to be 13% or more (at least as far as knives go). However, the more chromium added, the more of other elements need to be added to "make up" the difference, and doing such has 2 negative effects. Firstly, adding more carbon to bring hardness back up to snuff means the steel will be more brittle and less flexible (less tough), and secondly all the additional carbon (with other elements) to form carbides (which are extremely hard) make the steel more wear resistant also means it'll be harder to sharpen.
Put in simple terms, carbon steel will be tougher (as in strength, not difficulty) and easier to sharpen than stainless steel. For an extreme example, look at swords or machetes. They need to be strong yet flexible, and able to take an impact. So carbon steel (and usually a lower carbon steel than a knife) is used, because a higher carbon steel, or stainless steel will break/crack/shatter under such use.
When it comes to knives, it usually comes down to ease of sharpening (although larger knives, like bowies, still need to be tough), and often aesthetic reasons. A humble Case pocket knife takes a wickedly sharp edge with ease, holds it well enough to get you through the day (or several), and sharpens very easily once again. Many people also like the way carbon steel takes on a patina, giving a knife age and character. And on larger knives, carbon steel can be differentially hardened, giving the blade a hamon, which can be quite beautiful (as well as a hard edge and flexible spine). Don Fogg can't get a hamon on M390.
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Blackened carbon steel will cut your food just as easily as a nicely polished stainless blade could.
Bet it holds and edge longer, too
Bet it holds and edge longer, too
Heh, how strange, that's exactly the reason I like carbon, a patina has more character, especially combined with discoloured wood handles.
Blackened carbon steel will cut your food just as easily as a nicely polished stainless blade could.
Bet it holds and edge longer, too
That's entirely dependant on the steels being compared, but I bet the stainless would keep the edge longer as the carbon steel knife will constantly have its edge degraded by corrosion.
That wasn't a stain... according to some here, it was CHARACTER.
For kitchen use, which is the scope of use for this thread, I still don't see a performance advantage in nonstainless over stainless, except price. However, when I see expensive kitchen knives ($300+) in 1095, even that starts to break down. I won't say a well made 1095 knife isn't worth every penny, but at that price point, the price advantage of carbon steel disappers. Edgeholding ability of either group will vary wildly depending on the specific alloy used. Crap stainless isn't any better than crap nonstainless. Ease of sharpening is also alloy specific, and some of the easiest to sharpen knives I've ever worked on were stainless steel of some variety. I've had trouble with tenacious burrs on 1095 Old Hickories and 1075 Opinels. In spite of all this, I actually prefer my carbon steel knives to my stainless ones in the kitchen, even though to keep them at a good sharpness requires more frequent honing due to corrosion issues.
Lots of great responses and gomi pretty much nailed my feelings to a tee.
Most of my professional personal knifes are high carbon. I just prefer it. Love the look of a patina and it makes it mine. Super easy to sharpen to a ridiculously hair splitting edge.
One point that hasn't been mentioned: high carbon knives promotes good knife hygiene. Most (99%) of the time my knives are clean and dry before I set them down. Dirty crusty knives gives me the heebeegeebee's.
There are some really nice stainless steels out there that are not too hard to sharpen, take a great edge and hold it pretty well. The do usually cost more. They just don't hold much of an appeal to me.
I do use several SS knives at work but they are mostly used on the line where it is tough to always do a wipe down. I just use cheapie VG-10 knives for that (which are a great value).
Cheers,
rj
Most of my professional personal knifes are high carbon. I just prefer it. Love the look of a patina and it makes it mine. Super easy to sharpen to a ridiculously hair splitting edge.
One point that hasn't been mentioned: high carbon knives promotes good knife hygiene. Most (99%) of the time my knives are clean and dry before I set them down. Dirty crusty knives gives me the heebeegeebee's.
There are some really nice stainless steels out there that are not too hard to sharpen, take a great edge and hold it pretty well. The do usually cost more. They just don't hold much of an appeal to me.
I do use several SS knives at work but they are mostly used on the line where it is tough to always do a wipe down. I just use cheapie VG-10 knives for that (which are a great value).
Cheers,
rj