Why V blades?

[Nuno]

Hello everybody,


Something is intriguing me for a while.

I used to have (and still do) some knifes with V blades and V edges like the Puma Skinmaster or the Puma Mountain Lion. Two years ago I fortunately discovered the Bark River knives, with their beautiful and effective full convex blades, from which I now own a Gameskeeper, a Manitou and a Woodland, all of them superb cutting tools.

Everyone knows that even for persons with great experience concerning knives and knife sharpening, sharpening a V blade with a V edge is not an easy task, considering of course that the steel is of superior quality. Though being very fond of knives, I'm far from being a connoisseur. So you can imagine my frustration when trying to make a V edge cut like a razor blade. Impossible!

On the other hand, after carefully reading how to sharpen a convex blade, I was astonished how easily I managed, without any practice and in 30 seconds, to make my Gameskeeper cut again like if it had just arrived from the factory.

So, my question is:

If a full convex blade is so easy to sharpen, if its edge is more resistant, if it cuts better because its edge never becomes thicker and instead of getting buried it opens like a wedge, why the hell are V blades with V edges still being produced and people buying them?


Thanks
Nuno

 

[Ultimate]

Hello everybody,


Something is intriguing me for a while.

I used to have (and still do) some knifes with V blades and V edges like the Puma Skinmaster or the Puma Mountain Lion. Two years ago I fortunately discovered the Bark River knives, with their beautiful and effective full convex blades, from which I now own a Gameskeeper, a Manitou and a Woodland, all of them superb cutting tools.

Everyone knows that even for persons with great experience concerning knives and knife sharpening, sharpening a V blade with a V edge is not an easy task, considering of course that the steel is of superior quality. Though being very fond of knives, I'm far from being a connoisseur. So you can imagine my frustration when trying to make a V edge cut like a razor blade. Impossible!

On the other hand, after carefully reading how to sharpen a convex blade, I was astonished how easily I managed, without any practice and in 30 seconds, to make my Gameskeeper cut again like if it had just arrived from the factory.

So, my question is:

If a full convex blade is so easy to sharpen, if its edge is more resistant, if it cuts better because its edge never becomes thicker and instead of getting buried it opens like a wedge, why the hell are V Blades still being produced and people buying them?


Thanks
Nuno

It is my understanding that convex edges are MUCH more expensive to mass produce than V blades.

 

[Nuno]

Well, if I compare Puma or Böker with BRKT, that does not seem to be the case.

 

[Ultimate]

Well, if I compare Puma or Böker with BRKT, that does not seem to be the case.

What are you referring to? It's a fact that producing a curved edge is much more difficult than grinding two flat edges.

 

[effer]

Invest in a good sharpening system (Sharpmaker for example) and your troubles with V edges will be over. As a matter of fact you can sharpen all your kitchen knives using it.

 

[Nuno]

The good Puma and Böker knives are as expensive or even more expensive than the BRKT and they all have V blades.

 

[razorback1595]

Convex blades are almost impossible to manufacture on a massive scale.
That is why they went with v-grinds and v-edges so they can mass-produce those knives.

 

[Ultimate]

The good Puma and Böker knives are as expensive or even more expensive than the BRKT and they all have V blades.

You're getting into quality of ALL aspects of the knife itself. We're only talking about manufacturing the blade/edge. The guy above me is correct.

Also compare the number of knives produced by Boker and BRKT. I think in terms of production, Boker does a lot more. (Could be wrong in this, but everything else I said still stands)

 

[Nuno]

Ok. The manufacturing process is a good reason. Thanks.

 

[Burke]

All edge geometries cut a little differently and offer differing levels of support throughout the blade.

I personally find that a flat V grind cuts a little more aggressively than most convex edges, and a zero-bevel chisel grind cuts more aggressively still, but both leave a bit less material supporting the edge than typical convex grinds.

It's interesting to see the hybrid grinds knife-makers use to optimize performance.

For example, Jerry Hossom does deep hollow grinds with substantial convex edge bevels. That has the dual effect of reducing weight and drag while cutting while maintaining stiffness (due to the still-thick spine) but leaving a well-supported edge. Cuts great but I imagine the ultimate strength of the blade is not as great as it would be with, say, a full convex sabre grind.

Sean Perkins used to do what he called a scythe grind, which was a convex chisel grind. Sturdy as heck and cut surprisingly well due to it being in effective a zero grind on the flat side.

I had some Bill Siegle tantos years ago, one of which was a hollow chisel grind with a fairly large edge bevel. That thing was massive - 8" blade of 5/16 5160 IIRC - but had an incredibly sharp edge and cut extremely well. It was difficult to control during utility cuts however due to the uneven blade geometry. The other one was a traditional chisel grind, zero edge, in similarly thick stock. It felt a bit sharper on initial cuts but had less penetration and more drag because there was no "relief" from the hollow grind which would have reduced drag.

 

[puukkoman]

Preferences, mostly.
And I love BRKT, but if I'm stuck out in the woods and need to use a rock to sharpen my knife, a V-grind is going to be way easier to maintain.

 

[Nuno]

Interesting point.

 

[Bushman5]

depends on the knife.....i have some with V grinds that cut way easier than my full convexs.

 

[Tripton]

Why dont you just convex all of your knives?

You can at least do the edge.


I cannot get a convex edge as sharp as a regular edge, so I dont use them.

 

[Joshua J.]

(Joshua J. steps up to the soap box, and turns on a megaphone).

ALL KNIVES ARE SHARPENED EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!!!


It can be tricky to keep a V edge a perfect V, because we're human. Unless you use a rig it will end up slightly convex.
Aside from that, all grind types are determined by two things. 1. edge angle. 2. thickness of the blade behind the edge.
It doesn't matter what you call it or what fancy tools are used to achieve it, a 40 degree edge will be more durable than a 20 degree edge, and the 20 degree edge will out cut the 40 degree edge.
Whether the edge bevel is flat or convex is virtually irrelevant.
The convex edge may have a slight cutting performance advantage because it is more aerodynamically efficient. Really though, there is no difference between a convex edge and a V edge with a deep back bevel.
You want it tougher, get a knife with more metal behind the edge. You want it to cut better, grind down the blade behind the edge.

A chisel grind is just a V grind that is not centered to the handle (and yes, I do like my Besh Wedge for some things). The amount of energy expended by you when cutting with a chisel grind is no different than any other knife sharpened to the same angle and thickness. It's really just an easy way to mass produce a thin edge since all the grinding is done on one side. Unfortunately the practical applications of an off center V grind are limited.

Most importantly, they are all sharpened the same way. You remove material from the edge to make is less obtuse, thinner, and more pointy.
This is a common attribute to all things "sharp".

(Using a good set of 8" benchstones I usually achieve the perfect thinned out fuzzy V grind with a medium back bevel and a micro bevel. Some of them are partially chisel ground due to uneven factory edges.)

 

[PayetteRucker]

I hand sharpen all my blades, so obviously my flat ground blades become slightly convexed over time. I'm pretty damn good at maintaining a constant angle, but when I find my edge noticeably rounding I break out the soft stone and sharpen it down to flat again. I love scandis because it's so easy to maintain a super sharp flat grind, and find myself more and more attracted towards full flat grinds for just about every task.

 

[Nuno]

(Joshua J. steps up to the soap box, and turns on a megaphone).

ALL KNIVES ARE SHARPENED EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!!!


Most importantly, they are all sharpened the same way. You remove material from the edge to make is less obtuse, thinner, and more pointy.
This is a common attribute to all things "sharp".

Hello,

Obviously I don't understand as much about knives as most of the people here. Nevertheless, one thing is sure. NOT ALL KNIVES ARE SHARPENED EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!!! The effect of sharpening produces the same results, that's correct, but you don't sharpen a convex blade the same way you sharpen a V blade.

Or were you being more philosophical about the subject sharpening?

 

[Ultimate]

(Joshua J. steps up to the soap box, and turns on a megaphone).

ALL KNIVES ARE SHARPENED EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!!!


It can be tricky to keep a V edge a perfect V, because we're human. Unless you use a rig it will end up slightly convex.
Aside from that, all grind types are determined by two things. 1. edge angle. 2. thickness of the blade behind the edge.
It doesn't matter what you call it or what fancy tools are used to achieve it, a 40 degree edge will be more durable than a 20 degree edge, and the 20 degree edge will out cut the 40 degree edge.
Whether the edge bevel is flat or convex is virtually irrelevant.
The convex edge may have a slight cutting performance advantage because it is more aerodynamically efficient. Really though, there is no difference between a convex edge and a V edge with a deep back bevel.
You want it tougher, get a knife with more metal behind the edge. You want it to cut better, grind down the blade behind the edge.

A chisel grind is just a V grind that is not centered to the handle (and yes, I do like my Besh Wedge for some things). The amount of energy expended by you when cutting with a chisel grind is no different than any other knife sharpened to the same angle and thickness. It's really just an easy way to mass produce a thin edge since all the grinding is done on one side. Unfortunately the practical applications of an off center V grind are limited.

Most importantly, they are all sharpened the same way. You remove material from the edge to make is less obtuse, thinner, and more pointy.
This is a common attribute to all things "sharp".

(Using a good set of 8" benchstones I usually achieve the perfect thinned out fuzzy V grind with a medium back bevel and a micro bevel. Some of them are partially chisel ground due to uneven factory edges.)

What is the relevance of this post? The OP asked why all production knives don't come with convex edges. The answer is because straight V grinds or Chisel grounds are incredibly easier to mass produce. Take a flat piece of steel and put a flat edge on one side. Now take a piece of steel and put a convex edge on one side. Which one was faster? Which one was easier?

 

[samhain73]

LOL, I forgot why I started lurking a year ago. Silly me!

 

[Ultimate]

The only difference between convex and v-grind is that the v-grind has a platen under the belt with helps set the angle, because most of the workers get to sit while they sharpen, or the machine they have is huge and industrial.

You said it yourself. The angle is set, put the knife on the belt, grind both sides, done. A convex blade must be sharpened freehand unless you use a machine which will be much more expensive and technical than a belt sander. This is why companies do not convex ALL of their blades. It's inefficient. They can produce V-blades faster and simpler, it's not complicated. What do you think takes more skill? Holding a blade on set angle or trying to convex an edge on both sides with no guide while trying to make it as smooth and symmetrical on both sides as possible? This is why it costs more to convex.

and it took me 2 mins to do it with 1500 grit sandpaper and then a strop.

I highly doubt you convexed an edge from a different grind in 2 minutes. You either did a real sloppy job, did it wrong or both. If you think you can take a V-bevel and convex it PROPERLY in two minutes, I'd like to see the video.

EDIT: PLEASE READ THIS
After going through more of your posts I found this:

Where do people get this from? I see this popping up all over the place lately. Almost all companies sharpen the same way, from Case to Bark River. On a belt sander. It's just that with most companies the sharpener uses a platen to make the v-bevel, since it's easier to keep the angle. It is still done by hand, and on the same equipment. The only difference is convex is made on a slack belt, and take a bit more finesse due to having to watch the angle instead of it being made by the platen.

Do you understand what you're typing?? "uses a platen to make the v-bevel, since it's easier to keep the angel." "The only difference is convex is made on a slack belt, and take a bit more finesse due to having to watch the angle instead of it being made by the platen."

The words in bold explain why it costs more to convex. Maybe you don't realize this but a task requiring MORE SKILL requires MORE PAY, which translates to: "let's do it the cheaper way since people can convex their own knives if they want to."