Why waterstones?

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Jan 2, 2013
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I own a fairly wide variety of sharpening equipment, ranging from a Spyderco sharpmaker to several DMT Stones. At the moment, I am very happy with my Norton India for heavy stuff, while using the sharpmaker stones for quick touch ups. My ceramic stones have performed very well on a variety of steels, including high carbide and carbon steel.

Although I initally had some interest in japanese waterstones, I am kind of puzzled about what the appeal is. They seem like alot more of a pain for results that could be achieved by other means. Any input is appreciated.
 
Ive tried other methods and there is nothing like pulling out a stone, splash water on it, and have a sharpened knife in less than 30 seconds without setting up anything other than the stone and some water.

ive seen friends use those guided sharpmakers types and to me it just seems like training wheels for stones.

im a sushi chef and we typically only use stones because all you need is that stone and water.

with my 8000 grit I can get just about any knife so sharp you cannot touch the edge. I hear about people testing sharpness with bare fingers, indicatiin to me that its dull ;)
 
Its cheaper and faster.

they all sharpen about the same, perhaps diamond stones cut faster, but I just got done saying 30 seconds is all I need for untouchable edge.

I use diamond to flatten my stones like once a year.
 
water stones produce a mud/slurry that helps the steel glide along the stone making for a more uniform contact pressure. Think of a car running on a rough road. Now make it rain and put in a 6-inch layer of water on the road. This is good for hard, chippy steels like zdp 189.
 
Let me rephrase my question. What does a waterstone do better than ceramic or diamond stones?

Prefixing this by emphasizing I haven't used them (yet). BUT, the biggest advantage seems to be how waterstones continually slough off abrasive, thereby exposing new & fresh abrasive as you work. That means the abrasive is always working at it's most aggressive/effective level, and the stones don't get clogged by swarf or glazed over, as with most other stone types, which obviously slows grinding speed dramatically.

(I'm sure there are other reasons why many like them, and I'm assuming others will weigh in on this. But the above is what seems to be the biggest draw, based on how waterstones are distinguished from other types).


David
 
I own a 1000/4000 Norton JWS and I think it's more of a hassle.
Maintaining it to keep it flat combined with the mess just makes me reach for my DMTs and ceramics.
I can get such good edges with those that the Norton is just obsolete.
 
Old japanese chef often tell me, pretend you are flattening the stone with your knife, stone will always stay flat.

ever since that, ive been using all parts of the stone instead of the infsmous banana stone (middle get curved inwards).
 
Waterstones can be some of the most expensive stones for good quality stones but will also cut faster and produce a better cutting edge in most cases.

Sharpening in 30 seconds is a bit of a stretch, I do it professionally every day and my best is 2 minutes per stone using the best stones on the market.


Maintenance is not as bad as most make it out to be either, its actually pretty easy if shown the proper ways.
 
I like the feel and the "feedback" water stones give me. I also like the finish and the speed. And I like being able to get 30,000 grit stones.:D:thumbup::D
 
Ben, are you using your 30,000 grit stone as a maintenance stone, after establishing a fine edge first, or do you use the stone to establish your edge. For me, and I am sure others like me (poor &@$3!^"$) that have never used the water stones don't know which grit to start out with, and how to progress thru them without buying a boatload of stones we wouldn't need. Give an "old, cantankerous, set in his ways" guy some pointers.:confused:

Blessings,

Omar
 
Omar - you're sleep typing and drooled out a funny 30K question ... heheh calling your zzz post in other thread.

I agree on the qualitative/subjective aspects of sharpening with waterstones. Quantitatively: David mentioned re-newable fixed abrasives - where ceramic & diamond plate lack. Slurry mentioned for gliding reason. Further actions provided by slurry: lapping/polishing with loose abrasives; super polishing if abrasives are highly friable, i.e. slurry turns into sort of nagura slurry; loose abrasives abrade surface valleys & between teeth & off-the-edge where fixed abrasives can't reach; equalize abrading surface (depend on slurry viscosity & pressure). Water = coolant and reduce friction. Oh hey, now I am sleepy zzz...
 
I went to sleep somewhere about the "slurry; lapping/polishing" part of your post, and will have to re read it tomorrow to really get your point. Seriously though, you pretty much nailed the why and the benefits of the waterstones. I recently bought some Diamond stones to experiment with, and now I can see some waterstones in my future. If I keep this up I am going to have to go rent an address to have all this stuff mailed to, or find something to blackmail the wife with to stay out of trouble.

Blessings,

Omar
 
Ok well very dull knives may take more than 30 seconds hehe.

but once you get the hang of the stones its really efficient.
 
Ive tried other methods and there is nothing like pulling out a stone, splash water on it, and have a sharpened knife in less than 30 seconds without setting up anything other than the stone and some water.

ive seen friends use those guided sharpmakers types and to me it just seems like training wheels for stones.

im a sushi chef and we typically only use stones because all you need is that stone and water.

with my 8000 grit I can get just about any knife so sharp you cannot touch the edge. I hear about people testing sharpness with bare fingers, indicatiin to me that its dull ;)


If you are touching up a knife in under 30 seconds, please take a vid of this. Cut test first because that would mean that the blade wasn't dull or damaged to begin with. Also, I'll three-finger-test any knife you've ever sharpened. It works for any knife at any level of sharpness. There is no edge so scary sharp you can't touch it without it splitting your finger open. That's not the way skin and steel interact.


Its cheaper and faster.

they all sharpen about the same

no, no, and no. A good water stone costs as much as (or more than) diamond plates or ceramics. They don't cut as fast, usually, because they aren't as hard. And they don't sharpen the same, at all. They impart very different characteristics to your bevel and your final edge.


Old japanese chef often tell me, pretend you are flattening the stone with your knife, stone will always stay flat.

no. This does not work. You can lessen the dishing effect, but any water stone will eventually need flattening, unless you just don't mind a dished stone (which some people don't, especially in Japan). I regularly let my Omura 150 get pretty dished out before flattening because it dishes so easily (very muddy stone).
 
Ben, are you using your 30,000 grit stone as a maintenance stone, after establishing a fine edge first, or do you use the stone to establish your edge. For me, and I am sure others like me (poor &@$3!^"$) that have never used the water stones don't know which grit to start out with, and how to progress thru them without buying a boatload of stones we wouldn't need. Give an "old, cantankerous, set in his ways" guy some pointers.:confused:

Blessings,

Omar

There is practically no point in using a 30k stone except as a finishing stone (which is what it is) for specific purposes. I hope Ben comes back and answers the question. I'm interested to know, myself.

For real sharpening in the real world by people who actually use water stones and sharpen knives with them... a 1k and 6k stone (or something along those lines: 800 and 4k, 2k and 8k, etc.) is a good baseline med and fine stone. Murray Carter uses a 1k and 6k King exclusively. I have a 1k and 6k Arashiyama, and I use them exclusively. For reprofiling, a 100 - 400 stone is a good addition. I have an Omura 150, which I like a lot. I also have an Aratae 24, which is overkill for anything but repairing coin-sized chips or completely changing the shape of a knife. It's basically a manual belt grinder. Forget about it for basic reprofiling. I should have gotten the Aratae 60.

For wear-resistant steels (if you want to use certain water stones for the particular characteristics they impart), adding a step (or two) is a good idea, maybe like the "green brick of joy" 2k stone. For all practical purposes, a 6k finish with a good slurry will get you a pretty damn finished edge. Maybe go up to 8k "snow white" or something like that. 30k? Pfft. Maybe if you're honing a straight. Even as a finishing stone for just a tiny bit of light grit "blending" and edge-trailing to finish off, it so isn't worth the incredible expense. So yeah, please tell us how you use that 30k stone, Ben.
 
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Thanks for the post Mag. The 30,000 post was more tongue 'n cheek than an actual question. I knew there was no way to use a 30K stone for anything less than an extreme finishing stone. (really didn't know there was such a stone available) I was actually asking for the information you just provided, as I know that there is an abundance of different grit waterstones, but did not know which were the practical ones to acquire for someone just getting into the whole waterstone system. Most of my perceived uses would be to re sharpen an existing knife with a good established bevel. Great information and thanks.

Blessings,

Omar
 
Let me rephrase my question. What does a waterstone do better than ceramic or diamond stones?

I know some things that waterstones do differently than those two. There are probably more, but here's my list:

DMT versus waterstones: Waterstones come in a wider variety of grit sizes, so you've got more choices, including going to much higher polish level than DMTs or Atomas or any other diamond plate I'm aware of. Probably more importantly though is the difference in the abrasive that does the cutting. Diamonds cut like crazy! But they cut with a particle that is very pointy and doesn't break off. So, as far as I can tell, diamonds tend to leave a rougher finish than other abrasives at the same particle size (micron size). The finish from a coarse DMT is going to be rougher looking than the finish from a typical 1000 grit waterstone. You'd expect them to be the same based on particle size, but they aren't.

Of course the action of the waterstone breaking down as you use it changes it's cutting characteristics also. I don't have enough experience to know much about this, but I do know that the slurry produced to supposed to polish finer on most stones than the initial stone itself. Something like the "green brick of joy" is a 2000 grit stone. But people say that if you develop enough mud with it, and work it enough, the mud will break down to much finer and can leave a finish that's much like a 5000 grit stone! That's pretty interesting to me.

Ceramic versus waterstones: The ceramics I have (Spyderco) work really well. They load up a bit, but they are also easy to clean. A waterstone will load less generally speaking. But the cut of the ceramic is very different. First you have the cut of the abrasive particles in the ceramic. Sal says these are "synthetic sapphires". So they're super hard and cut well. But it's more complex than that, because the ceramic binder that holds them together has it's own "grit" or ability to polish. What it really seems to do is burnish the metal. The sapphires cut and the ceramic burnishes. What you end up with is kind of a smoothed out metal, but it's done with a different action than other abrasives. It's more of a slick finish than a toothy one in my opinion. This could be good or bad depending on what you want.

Waterstones, on the other hand, are polishing with just their abrasives particles, which are Aluminum Oxide (same as an "india stone"), or Silicon Carbide (same as "Crystolon stones"). As far as I know, the binder doesn't play in. It certainly does NOT burnish the metal. So the finish is quite different.

Other things that attracted me *personally* to waterstones:

Cutting power, but without deep scratches. I've been told waterstones cut as fast as diamonds on most metal, but leave a finer finish. So far, on non-super steels, this seems to be true. On super steels, I'm not so sure. :)

Ability to "skip grits". Making a leap from 1000 to 6000 is totally common with waterstones and seems to work really well. That's a time saver. Again with super hard steels this seems to be less true, but I have very little experience so far.

Ability to bear down on the stones *some* and not damage them. I'm *always* thinking I'm going to strip the diamonds off of my DMT Diasharp plates. I know I've removed a postage stamp sized area from my coarse plate. Darn it. With the waterstones I can go a bit harder and just not worry about it.

Working wet is very pleasant to me. The feel of some of the stones with water on top is... it's an intangible, and I like it. Which plays into a very intangible point for me: The traditional aspect of it. In some tiny nerdy way, I feel connected to the past when using waterstones. I feel like, in some way, this is the way sharpening was meant to be done. Some of the finest cutting tools ever made were sharpened and polished this way by some of the finest makers in history. That's pretty cool to me. :)

I'm not sure how accurate all of this is, but it's what I think.

Brian.
 
Yes it does work. I have seen eith my own eyes. Old man runs knife all over stone even jn corners I have difficult with (I freehand ocer 8 years noe) but old chef has freehand over 40 years.

his stone is perfectly flat and he uses only a knife to flatten stones.

of course less than 1% of sharpeners have this skill...

Also I have seen chefs use a 2000 grit beginnjng to end, no other stone whhatsoever and still manage scary as hell sushi knives.
 
Working wet is very pleasant to me. The feel of some of the stones with water on top is... it's an intangible, and I like it. Which plays into a very intangible point for me: The traditional aspect of it. In some tiny nerdy way, I feel connected to the past when using waterstones. I feel like, in some way, this is the way sharpening was meant to be done. Some of the finest cutting tools ever made were sharpened and polished this way by some of the finest makers in history. That's pretty cool to me. :)

I'm not sure how accurate all of this is, but it's what I think.

Brian.

Well said Brian.

That is exactly why I enjoy using water stones, or whetstones if you will. That and the challenge. Always been good with my hands. If im in a piss poor mood I don't even attempt to sharpen. It's more of a zen/relaxing/fun event kinda thing with me. I look forward to my time with the blades, stones and water. I've used oil stones before in the machinist trade and thought they were messy and did not like the way they loaded up on oil and grit when finishing up some tool steel bits for lathe work. Started using waterstones a month ago, been collecting and researching all i can on them ever since. Took my first 3 norton starters to work and have quite a few Japanese stones at home now.
 
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