Why waterstones?

The impact energy of the floating particles in the abrasive mud isn't high enough to deform or cut into the edge in a manner anyone will notice. Instead you get a lapping grit rolling around and breaking down under the edge, leaving a misty finish. Not all waterstones do this, and some western stones will (the fine crystolon under some conditions for example).

In regards to cutting speed, I find on average a waterstone will cut much faster than a hard sintered or diamond stone of equal grit due to the surface breaking down and exposing fresh grit rapidly. If the waterstone loads up, and some of them do, it will result in slow cutting and a high polish, if it's a muddy stone and you work the slurry with the finer grits, it cuts a bit slower. On a waterstone that doesn't load up, flushing the surface with water constantly results in a consistently high cutting speed for the rated grit. I'd put the cutting speed of a shapton 1000 pro against any 600 grit diamond stone.
 
HuntBomb said:
I own a 1000/4000 Norton JWS and I think it's more of a hassle.
Maintaining it to keep it flat combined with the mess just makes me reach for my DMTs and ceramics.
I can get such good edges with those that the Norton is just obsolete.
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Same here. I'll get out one of my waterstones now and then just to remind myself why I prefer other abraisives. I find that a coarse diamond surface works best for me when I want to remove steel and raise a burr in a hurry. It's fast and ready to go when I pick the thing up, don't have to give it a beauty bath it for 20 minutes before getting to work. After that I usually use three other diamond stones to refine the edge, then get out a Belgian coticule or an even finer natural stone from Thuringia in Germany, where I live (http://www.wetzen-und-schleifen.de/produkte.php?Sehr feine Wasser-Schleifsteine&rub=34) to finish it off. If I want to return to my youth for a few minutes, I'll get out a Hard Arkansas black with a bit of oil. I don't think it gets any better than that. The Japanese waterstones certainly do very good work, and so do many other diamond and natural stones and ceramics.
 
HwangJino said:
Old japanese chef often tell me, pretend you are flattening the stone with your knife, stone will always stay flat.

ever since that, ive been using all parts of the stone instead of the infsmous banana stone (middle get curved inwards).
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Always felt a person should be paying attention to what they're doing to the knife, not to what they're doing to the hone. I don't really like having to change the length of stroke or where I'm sharpening to accomdate to a new high or low spot either. Much more apt to just flatten it periodically.

That's just me though... I suppose other people are more talented, but it just feels too much like multi-tasking to me.
 
HwangJino said:
Old japanese chef often tell me, pretend you are flattening the stone with your knife, stone will always stay flat.

ever since that, ive been using all parts of the stone instead of the infsmous banana stone (middle get curved inwards).
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Murray Carter demos this in a YT video...

[video=youtube;_InT88SR19w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_InT88SR19w[/video]
 
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cbwx34 said:
Murray Carter demos this in a YT video...

[video=youtube;_InT88SR19w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_InT88SR19w[/video]
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To summarize:
Point to point contact only warrants use of a point or small area on the stone.

By the same logic one might as well just sharpen with the stone stood up on end. This method is fine for a very advanced and skilled user or for someone with fairly low expectations (relative to what I see shared here often).

I might suggest that sacrificing a bit of stone in order to flatten it, is a worthwhile trade off for the average user. Further, if one incorporates use of slurry from time to time, he/she can create the slurry and maintain flatness at the same time and without waste.

Water stones can be expensive but, they are a tool for a job. I would suggest that the job should not suffer the condition of the tool. If you can perform this technique with no detriment to the outcome, great. I will suggest that not all can;)

Edit:
I don't intend to bash or come off harsh. There are lots of jobs where this technique will suit the user/use, but there are jobs where I'd argue strongly against it.
 
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I employ the method of sharpening with the whole waterstone to help maintain flatness. While it does help it does not work, I tend to wear through stones in just a few months and without periodic flattening I would have a very hard time sharpening asymmetric grinds, razors, or Japanese single bevel knives. As the stone starts to dish even slightly it can greatly effect the sharpening of these blade types and in some cases cause the stone to be gouged near the edge and/or distort the grind of the blade.

We had a knife rep in from Japan a few weeks back and he too worked the whole stone while sharpening to help keep it flat but also asked to use the stone flattener....
 
As I see it, Mr. Carter is asking us to pay an unusual amount of attention to what we're doing. This is rewarding in itself.
Many people won't be willing to stop thinking and begin observing, many of us prefer to have a theory or technique to follow without that degree of focus.
This method could be said to be cooperative with the sharpening tool, meeting it halfway with respect.
 
elementfe said:
As I see it, Mr. Carter is asking us to pay an unusual amount of attention to what we're doing. This is rewarding in itself.
Many people won't be willing to stop thinking and begin observing, many of us prefer to have a theory or technique to follow without that degree of focus.
This method could be said to be cooperative with the sharpening tool, meeting it halfway with respect.
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Well said.
 
Omar, The 15Kand 30K are used to finish off a "Braggin' Rights" knife!:D

I re-bevel and re-establish bevels with Atoma and/or DMT diamond plates on the edge-Pro. Then start the water stones, usually at 320 OR 500, depending on the steel to get the diamond scratches out. then on to 1K, 2K, 5K and 10K.

With some knives, especially kitchen knives and softer steels, I stop at 2K.

As for the economics, well.... It has taken me a bit more than 10 years to collect my current inventory of stones and equipment. Unless you're considerably wealthier than an old retired history teacher, you don't buy the entire set up in one order!
 
Thanks for the come back Ben. I did some research on the water stones, and quickly saw that I won't be buying any large number of real quality stones. The Nortons are more in my price range for experimenting with. I bought three DMT's a while back, course, fine, and extra fine. I think now that I should have bought the extra course also. I normally sharpen with my Paper wheels, and get excellent results with them. I am going to post a thread soon about my experiences with the DMT's verses the Wheels. Sneak preview, I was extremely disappointed with the DMT's. They are great for the wife's kitchen knives as they leave a good toothy edge on them, as my wheels leave a more polished edge with little tooth.

I wanted to try the waterstones to see what all the commotion is about. I think the 220, 1000, 2000, 6000, and the final at 8000 would be all I would need to experiment with. Probably start out with 2 or 3 of the lower grit, and add the others as I can sneak them in.:cool: Being a retired over the road truck driver limits my "play" money.

Blessings,

Omar
 
I would highly recommend the Arashiyama 1k and 6k to start and if you want a coarse stone check out the 400 "latte". They are affordable and will give some of the best results possible.
 
I am somewhat reluctant to disagree with someone as knowledgeable as Jason, but I am still very much enamored of the Shapton Glass Stones.
 
Honestly? Polishing. The slurry makes it easy to polish the entire face of the bevel with freehand. So if you don't have 100% rock steady hands, it'll be easier to mirror polish on a waterstone than on anything else.
 
HwangJino said:
Yes it does work. I have seen eith my own eyes. Old man runs knife all over stone even jn corners I have difficult with (I freehand ocer 8 years noe) but old chef has freehand over 40 years.

his stone is perfectly flat and he uses only a knife to flatten stones.

of course less than 1% of sharpeners have this skill...
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I find it hard to believe I'm in 1% of anything, in a positive category anyway...
Its easy to use the entire surface if you practice at it for a little bit, and this translates very well to a hard vitreous stone too, as it spreads the swarf out over the entire surface and keeps it from possibly being ground into the stone. I usually start out working the ends of the stone with a scrubbing technique to reset the bevels, then use the middle of the stone to finish the edge off and remove the burr. I use this method for watersones, oil stones, Jointer stones, sandpaper, paper strops. At one point I actually cut some of my Norton waterstones lengthwise into 1 1/2" strips because I was dishing the middle out so bad I had to lap them after every use, and even when sharpening I might have trouble with some edges that had a pronounced belly. I wish I hadn't done that now, as I've learned how to use my waterstones and jointer stones without dishing of any note. I haven't lapped any of them in a looong time. I do use a small piece of the same stone to rub the surface down from time to time and build a slurry/mud if needed.
 
yoda4561 said:
The impact energy of the floating particles in the abrasive mud isn't high enough to deform or cut into the edge in a manner anyone will notice. Instead you get a lapping grit rolling around and breaking down under the edge, leaving a misty finish. Not all waterstones do this, and some western stones will (the fine crystolon under some conditions for example).

In regards to cutting speed, I find on average a waterstone will cut much faster than a hard sintered or diamond stone of equal grit due to the surface breaking down and exposing fresh grit rapidly. If the waterstone loads up, and some of them do, it will result in slow cutting and a high polish, if it's a muddy stone and you work the slurry with the finer grits, it cuts a bit slower. On a waterstone that doesn't load up, flushing the surface with water constantly results in a consistently high cutting speed for the rated grit. I'd put the cutting speed of a shapton 1000 pro against any 600 grit diamond stone.
Click to expand...

I'll add to this well said explanation, due to the loose grit and (relatively) soft surface, one can finish off an edge on many polishing-grade waterstones with a trailing stroke without raising a burr. Indeed, one can remove a smaller burr with this technique, something that doesn't work on a hard fixed abrasive like ceramics or diamonds. Stropping as an additional step becomes optional.

Another consideration I've wondered about - since the abrasives aren't locked in place, it seems the coarser grit waterstones don't create deep defined scratches in the steel, yet still manage fast removal rates - I chalk this up to the lapping action as well.

Have to add that all of the qualities I enjoy in a waterstone are present in some jointer stones, and (for me) the convenience of using a smaller amount of oil, rather than a large quantity of water. They can also be used dry until they load up. On the downside there is a rather limited selection of these stones that are suitable for hand sharpening.
 
knifenut1013 said:
I would highly recommend the Arashiyama 1k and 6k to start and if you want a coarse stone check out the 400 "latte". They are affordable and will give some of the best results possible.
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This is great advice. I have all three of these and they are very nice stones to work with.
 
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