Why won't sword makers warrant their swords against breakage?

15th Century Cinquedea is named so because of its five-finger wide blade at the hilt. The Cinquedea was designed to use force to penetrate gaps in armor plate, with the width of blade giving the weapon its strength.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kirby uses only 5160 for his blades AND they are fully functional. He has been making them for so long (starting in the late 50s), they have become legendary in how rugged his wares are. BUT we have also heard stories just how much abuse and misuse some people will stupidly put them through. Believe me, both Kirby and I are not amused when this happens.

We used to not have a "Disclaimer" on our website but in the past (before putting up it up in 1996) people who bought from us were generally reenactors. Or others who had some idea how to handle and respect swords for what they were. Up til then, our advertising has been many decades of "word of mouth" advertising within reenacting community and other groups. When first going online, this openned us up to all sorts of people whose only idea of a "sword" comes from what they read in a fantasy book. See in a film or have some other idea that a sword can chop/stab through plate, cut metal fenceposts in two, use as a prybar, et.c....

Now, we have always explained to customers what a sword is/was used for. But NOT used for. Educating the public is part of what I have done for the past 34 years in Kirby's 50 year old Arms&Armour business. But that does not mean someone will take it in their heads to do otherwise. For that matter, although THEY may be very responsible, this does not mean friends, family or others are.

Axes, tomahawks, daggers, bowies, saxes, and other such weaponry are something else. These tended to be more utilitarian weapons to begin with. But Swords? Up to a point (pun intended)

Most custom swordmakers are small businesses and cannot afford any litigation brought about because of an owner's mistake. We all try to make our wares functional and well constructed. But we are not Volundr, Wayland, Hesphestus/Vulcan, Elvish smiths of Rivendale et al. making indestructable weaponry.

Although there are those who say some of us are and make pretty danged close.
 
Rat Finkenstein said:
As far as tactical or non-traditional sword makers not offering a good warranty, I don't know- haven't really seen very many tactical swords around- only one that comes to mind is the Mad Dog, which would not be covered by any sort of decent warranty. Anyone have links to similar tactical type swords?
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Here's a few tactical swords

http://www.szaboinc.com/custom.html
 
ERdept said:
Guess rural Americans, in the spirit of heartiness and toughness that made America what it is as we grew as a nation, just want something that works.

Seems a specialized weapon like a rapier or broadsword is just meant to be used for speacialized purposes by experts in those fields agains soft targets, like the human flesh, as stated by the epert above.

So, If in battling another person and you mis-strike them and hit a castle wall, a tree limb or a stone, I suppose your sword wasn't mean to take that kind of abuse and just break. Since they are for just cutting soft human flesh.

So, if I had a choice between something that was specialized to cut human flesh and not hit anything else or a sword that was meant to cut everything hard that the other swords weren't meant to cut, and I could also use it on the soft human flesh....

I would prefer the tougher of the two. I really wish they would make a rapier or broadsword in infi steel and have a go at it.


This was an interesting discussion indeed. I enjoyed the opinions very much, including the attack on me. Take care fellers and have other great discussions.

cliff:D
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I actually think that American heartiness and toughness don't contradict what the majority here seem to be saying. That can-do spirit is founded on a strong awareness of the tools you have, what they do, what they can't do, and what *should* be done when you don't have the right tool for the job. Namely, get it or make it and then be done with it. If you look at old tools used by generations that actually lived and died by the work of their hands, you'll find that specialization and optimization for certain tasks is fairly prevalent, at least in edged tools. I personally have found that the toughest, heartiest, most hands-on people I've ever met are always extremely aware of the capabilities of their tools and/or weapons. They make sure they have what they need. Swords are edged objects, yes - but they are about as related to "sharpened prybar tactical knives" as handguns are to hammers.

In the medieval context - there's a difference between occassionally missing and glancing off of something hard, and deliberately walking around flailing your expensive sword into walls and trees. :) And if you had a sword, you probably had a scabbard and a belt - very handy places to hang more generalized tools.

Finally, the tougher, more indestructible sword would get you killed - both in the medieval and the modern context. Much of what "strength" is, at least in this discussion, is *mass* - you get a more durable weapon at the cost of balance and the fine-tuning that is present in historical swords across cultural and temporal boundaries. Here's a statement that may get me yelled at - a sword that trades essential handling characteristics for durability may outlast *real* swords, but will most likely live its super long life out hanging on a wall while the swordsman who owns it uses more appropriate weapons to ply his trade.

There are, of course, ways to gain durability without sacrificing mass - Howard Clark's bainite/martensite katanas are the pre-eminent example.

Good topic.
 
Machetes are tough and are great for cutting limbs that aren't moving really fast and trying to kill you with their own sharp weapons.

A sword is like a bullet in that it doesn't matter how "strong/powerful" it is if you can't deliver it to the target, thus the traditional forms were evolved by people that had to make their point first, so to speak.
 
Seems to me that in order to warrant a sword against all breakage, no matter what, it has to be basically impossible to break. Won't break even if smacked sideways against a rock, pounded on with a hammer, or jammed into a 2x4 and torqued. Of course, it's easy to do this, make it short, wide, thick, and soft.

But a short, wide, thick, and soft sword isn't all that great at stabbing, slashing, and hacking. It's heavy, unbalanced, lacks reach, and won't hold an edge.

Can you produce a sword that can't be broken under any circumstance, and yet is still long, thin, narrow, and hard enough to be good at stabbing, slashing, and/or hacking? Seems like a tall order. At the very least, it's not going to come cheap.
 
kresky said:
Seems to me that in order to warrant a sword against all breakage, no matter what, it has to be basically impossible to break. Won't break even if smacked sideways against a rock, pounded on with a hammer, or jammed into a 2x4 and torqued. Of course, it's easy to do this, make it short, wide, thick, and soft.

But a short, wide, thick, and soft sword isn't all that great at stabbing, slashing, and hacking. It's heavy, unbalanced, lacks reach, and won't hold an edge.

Can you produce a sword that can't be broken under any circumstance, and yet is still long, thin, narrow, and hard enough to be good at stabbing, slashing, and/or hacking? Seems like a tall order. At the very least, it's not going to come cheap.
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The AK47 is none of the things you mention. It is a short sword, so it is somewhat short, but it is not overly thick (3/16"), it is not wide, and it is quite hard (HRC 60) It is balanced at the start of the cutting edge, and is not very heavy, and it is quite flexible.

It is also very cheap, all things considered.

Edit: it also holds a great edge.
 
Kohai999 said:
15th Century Cinquedea is named so because of its five-finger wide blade at the hilt. The Cinquedea was designed to use force to penetrate gaps in armor plate, with the width of blade giving the weapon its strength.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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That is exactly what I was thinking of, thanks.:)
 
I have Criswells and Busse Swords, Both are made to bash/slash and abuse.

That is why I bought them.

I have not yet heard/read about anyone breaking either one.

Anyone out there have knowledge of any of these swords breaking?

Thank you
 
Kohai999 said:
The Cinquedea was designed to use force to penetrate gaps in armor plate, with the width of blade giving the weapon its strength.
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Hey there, Steven- don't suppose you have a source for this do you? I'd like to hear more. I always read they popped up for a very short period of time in a very specific area (Verona, and a couple other Itallian cities), and that they were almost strictly for civilian carry. I recall one source saying they evolved this way because of legal restrictions on the blade length civilians could carry. It would make sense to me that if you are restricted on length, then you can at least increase cutting power and the width of stabbing wounds (on unarmored targets) by going with a blade shaped like this.

In contrast those swords/weapons that we do know were designed to find gaps in armor had very slender points, and maybe even no cutting edges at all in the case of the estoc.
 
The Angel Sword guarantee link I posted is an invitation also to visit the forums wherin any number of threads discuss things like "I was cutting 3" saplings and hit a post." or "I was cutting pvc pipe and dulled the edge" or "I was doing something REALLY stupid and shattered the grip/broke the blade/chipped the blade or whatever...". Despite the fact they were not used on things swords were meant to cut (human flesh and bone) but rather the exception (things more like armor, other weapons or shields), I think all of the damaged swords were fixed with little or no payment.
Many of AS's loyal customers routinely put their swords through hell and are rarely disappointed. They are tough, but anything can be damaged. The difference here is Daniel does not make excuses, hide behind a thinly worded guarantee or shirk from his given word.
We, the customers, are his second line testing department and he appreciates this in his quest to produce the toughest, high-hardness swords in the world.....built for extreme performance.
"Why won't sword makers warrant their swords against breakage?" Because thay are 'makers' or resellers of sword-like-objects. Not swordSMITHS. Many swordSMITHS have pretty good guarantees.
 
Merek said:
We, the customers, are his second line testing department and he appreciates this in his quest to produce the toughest, high-hardness swords in the world.....built for extreme performance.
"Why won't sword makers warrant their swords against breakage?" Because thay are 'makers' or resellers of sword-like-objects. Not swordSMITHS. Many swordSMITHS have pretty good guarantees.
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I am a cutter, and I know JSA students from Texas, and AngelSword wares are not used by any of them in competition. When I asked them about AS work at the West Coast Tai Kai, I got a shrug and an "eh" as a response.

I would like to see more credible students using them before I weighed in. Bailey Bradshaw's stamp of approval would work for me, I'm gonna talk to him about it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
I am a cutter, and I know JSA students from Texas, and AngelSword wares are not used by any of them in competition. When I asked them about AS work at the West Coast Tai Kai, I got a shrug and an "eh" as a response.

I would like to see more credible students using them before I weighed in. Bailey Bradshaw's stamp of approval would work for me, I'm gonna talk to him about it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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I'm not familiar with the West Coast Tai Kai but since Japanese sword arts are typically fairly traditional one would suspect that the shrugs and "ehs" probably come more from not being interested in non-traditional swords more then anything else.
 
ERdept said:
The reason I wonder this is because I noticed on the Busse forum, the AK 47 short sword is torture tested, bent, thrown against things and into trees and used to chop limbs. Then they have a lifetime warranty on the blade and if you don't modify their original blade and break it, they'll basically replace it.

Aren't sword makers confident enough in their products to do such things to their own swords or at least replace them if they break?

not in english, but you get the idea..........http://www.busse-messer.de/infi.html

cliff
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Any Sword or knife made both past and present regardless of cost or who made it can be broken. Himalayan Imports http://www.himalayan-imports.com/ unconditionally guarantee’s their Chiruwa Ang Khola against breakage in fact they will send you two if you can break it, that’s about the best guarantee I’ve seen. But the bottom line is even Chiruwa Ang Khola can be broken with enough determination. Some green bamboo took exception to being attacked by a well-known person over at ARMA and subsequently broke his perfectly good Del Tin 5143. Even well trained and practiced individuals botch cuts and break swords. Most manufacturers are lenient and will work with you provided it was not something really really stupid that resulted in the sword breaking.
 
JCaswell said:
If you miss that big, you're probably dead. If you swing like a baseball bat, you're dead. Thus the development of weapons that handle a certain way. Remember, the other guy might well have a pointy thing to stick you with before you finish you're missed swing (bigger, Hollywood axe-swinging moves are slow and easy to 'read'. Real fencing/combat doesn't look much like Hollywood. It's a lot quicker and more efficient.
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Oh like a sport right, like fencing where you just touch the person VERY quickly or Kendo where just a tap gets a point, versus Kenjistu where the movements were powerful and fast and used to hack off a limb, or cut deeply. I see what you're saying. Fast non powerfull movements kill, not powerfully swung ones at the right moment. Ahh I see the light now. Funny how one of out ER docs who collects and practices with his Katanas told me when I was interested in doing Kendo not to do it. He said, in reality, the samurai or whomever made powerful cuts that used the long handle of the blade like a lever, one had swinging and the other on the butt pulling up and that the movements were strong and powerful. A stike would sever or slash deeply. But this is wrong according to Caswell. OK.

cliff
 
I'm not sure you really read what he said. He said "swing it like a baseball bat, you're dead" that is not the same as a controlled cut using the handle as a lever.
You simply did not put yourself in a position to miss so badly you hit the wall or tree behind them. It's like playing pool, every move sets up the next move and you would certainly not swing with so much force to leave your self wide open if you missed.
 
I have taking a Kendo class for 2 years now and the study of swords is topic that I find interesting.
What I have seen is that the TV and movie image of sword fighting is totally fake. In real life the manner you use a sword it different than the blade to blade contact we have come to expect in movies.

Now the reason the Japanese came up with the method of forging a sword from different types of metal was to reduce the chance of the sword breaking in fight- related situations.
Although I think anyone would perfer a sword, (even one just purchased to just hang on the wall), that would not break or otherwise fail, the truth is that there is always going to be a balance that you have to keep in mind. There are many different issues to work with in the design and use of a sword.

If I were going up against an armed foe with who would have type [X] weapon in his hand, then I would need to make sure that my choice of weapon and style of fighting is able to be employed in that situation with a high chance of success.

If I were in such a contest where there was a high chance of accidentally striking stone, brick, or harden steel plate armor, then I think the Busse AK 47 would be worth thinking about.

However if I were inviting my Kendo class over to my house to look at my sword collection, the last thing I would want hanging on my wall would be the modern steel AK 47 as it's more a modern design than true historical sword .
Now there is also a trade-off as to what we as sword owners can expect for the company that makes our swords.
Yes, it is always nice that a sword maker will replace a failed sword, "No questions asked". Thats a given.

But the trade off is that we have to expect that as insurance against replacing the sword, the maker has changed the nature of the sword away from the historical design that would fail more often to a more trustworthy design.

If the historical linage of a sword you own is of no importance to you? then a modern sword is a good one to pick.
Some sword owners enjoy the idea of being able to walk into the woods with their sword to chop firewood.

However other sword owners cringe at the very thought of using a sword of historical design in such a manner.

In other words, I have come to see that in most cases you get what you pay for.
If you only are willing to spend up to $200 to $500 bucks on a sword then you should expect you will get a sword that it really good at chopping wood and can be sharpened with a file.

But if you just dropped $500 to $5,000 or more on a sword you should expect to need to touch this sword only with your white gloves on.There are other reasons to spend that kind of money on a sword other than need to be able to toss it into a tree stump from across the yard.
 
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