Wicked Edge: Skipping 800/1000 stones?

[Komitadjie]

EDIT: Please disregard this posting, I mis-read your response.

I concur that if ALL you use is a system, you will likely not have all the experience you need to freehand well. But that's not to say that the time spent with the system is valueless. It might not teach you the exact feel for freehand, but it DOES teach you a lot about pressures, burr formation, burr removal, hitting the edge, and many other extremely critical concepts to sharpening.

As an aside, from a purely practical standpoint, having a mechanical guide makes it a LOT easier to have success. People who would otherwise throw in the towel on sharpening and never even become interested are much more likely to continue once they have some assurance that they're not going to hose their blades up too badly. From an ideal standpoint, it seems that the BEST way for a sharpener to really learn would be to have experience with all common sharpening methods. Belts, wheels, freehand, guided... they all have their place, and used correctly they can ALL produce obscenely-sharp edges!

 

[Komitadjie]

That's true, actually, although the size of the scratches depends largely on the grit of the diamond plate. The DMT plates I purchased before I really got into sharpening, at the advice of a friend of mine. I'm honestly fairly impressed with them, I really like how fast and aggressively the XC removes metal! I think, given my choice (and the method I use with my EdgePro) is to use the diamonds at the coarse grits for the non-dishing, fast-material-removal to repair damage or reprofile a bevel, then switch over to waterstones at the ~1K level and take it from there to finish with waterstones.

My favourite on that line are the Shapton stones, although Choseras are darn good as well. Still want to get a set of the Shapton Glass, but those suckers are EXPENSIVE. To the tune of the price of my entire belt sharpening setup for a couple stones! The ones I had for the WEPS, though, worked REALLY nicely.

EDIT: Although with regard to diamond plate wear, it's not as bad as a lot of people think. There's a misconception that the initial grit change in the first half-dozen knives is "Wearing out". More precisely, it's a break-in period, where the loosely-attached diamonds work loose and detach, leaving the plate with a finer grit that it will hold for a LONG time. Improper use (with excessive pressure), can cause detachment of the diamonds and destruction of the plate, of course. But that's really no different than abusing a waterstone until it breaks or becomes chipped / dished / glazed.

 

[somber]

Think you actually missed the second sentence there, I can and do freehand as well. Just not as quickly or as precisely.

But that's not an answer to my question. Let me rephrase my question so that you have a better understanding of the point I'm trying to make: If you had no previous freehand experience, and all you had experience working with was a system, would you have the capability to establish an edge WITHOUT the use of the system?

I contend that you couldn't, since you have no understanding of how to establish an edge except by using the system that determines (and holds the angle) and creates the edge for you.

Conversely, if you only have experience with sharpening freehand, could you take those principles and apply them to a system and achieve a keen edge? Without a doubt.

 

[BePrepared]

contend all you want. I use a WE because it produces results better than i can do without it, and i don't care to spend the time learning to do it your way

given the same amount of time, i doubt strongly that you could produce an edge as precise as i get with the WE, or as sharp.

Also, and this is the important bit... haters gonna hate...

 

[Komitadjie]

Agreed, a guided system by nature can NOT teach you fully how to freehand. I mis-read your earlier post, I apologize.

It can, though, teach you many valuable things that *can* be applied if you would wish to make the transition to freehand later. Some people will wish to do so, some won't. It's much, much easier to find success with a guide assisting you, though, and a beginner working with a guided system (specifically because most people will NOT have the luxury of a highly-skilled freehand sharpener showing them the skill) is a lot more likely to be pleased with the results, and as a result of that initial success, follow through into additional sharpening down the road.

I'm not at ALL attempting to deride freehand sharpening in any way, it is an extremely fine skill that takes a tremendous amount of practice and dedication. I think the key point, though, is that a newbie with a guided system like the EP or WEPS can often reach the level of edge refinement within hours of practice that it would take years of practice to achieve with a freehand set. Nothing wrong with either way, really.

EDIT: Hey, BP, don't stress about it. This is a hobby, and everyone has a different way of having fun.

 

[somber]

contend all you want. I use a WE because it produces results better than i can do without it, and i don't care to spend the time learning to do it your way

given the same amount of time, i doubt strongly that you could produce an edge as precise as i get with the WE, or as sharp.

Also, and this is the important bit... haters gonna hate...

Not at all, I'm not 'hating' on anything. I'm trying to say that you have the capability and the potential to produce the same results freehand if you choose to invest the time in learning the skill, but if you want to use a system, go for it - but don't delude yourself into thinking that you're gaining applicable skills by using it, at the end of the day it's still a crutch.

It takes me about seven minutes (ten if there is a lot of damage) to produce a hair-popping edge, but I guess I've had access to a better teacher than most people do.

 

[BePrepared]

I am definitely gaining an applicable skill.

My applicable skill is "using a wicked edge, to put a razor sharp edge on a knife"

as to 7 minutes... i absolutely do not believe that unless you're sharpening to the same edge angle as was previously on the knife

A reprofile on a supersteel knife will take you 3 or 4 times that long using any system other than a belt grinder.

Using my WE, i can put a hair popping edge on a knife that has already been profiled in about 3 minutes... to reprofile from a convex edge to a 30 degree inclusive edge and fully sharpen my Busse TGLB took me 40 minutes

if i decide to go to a mirror edge it will take me another 10 or so

 

[somber]

That's the disadvantage of a system vs. freehand. Sharpening freehand allows me to get more strokes in per minute than you can with a system, and I'm sharpening the whole blade at one time without having to reposition it in a clamp or change rods. Honestly, seven minutes is a little slow, too. Murray (my employer) sharpens knives his knives, Hitachi White Steel #1 (a super steel) in about three minutes before they're sent out to clients and his knives are known for being the sharpest out-the-box edges in the knife world - and he does it all while going over the daily agenda.

But hey, glad you feel like you're gaining an applicable skill.

To clarify, that's also with proper maintenance of the secondary edge (the steel behind the primary edge), ie laying the blade flat on the stone and thinning it out - which you can't do with a system.

 

[BePrepared]

reposition? reclamp?

you think you can do more strokes with a stone than you can with a WE? you clearly have NO IDEA how a WE works

I NEVER have to reposition or reclamp a blade, and i can get in 2-4 strokes a second.... i also sharpen the entire edge in one stroke unless the blade is over 5" long.

again, there's a WORLD of difference between replacing a dulled edge, and reprofiling a completely different angled edge.

I can take a knife with a 30 degree edge that's dull and return it to hair popping sharp in about 3 minutes...

Please find a convexed edge knife, and show me how you can reprofile and sharpen it in less than 10 minutes. I'd love to see that video

 

[somber]

To clarify, that's also with proper maintenance of the secondary edge (the steel behind the primary edge), ie laying the blade flat on the stone and thinning it out - which you can't do with a system.

Proper maintenance of the secondary edge is important because if you only sharpen the primary edge (the edge that initiates the cut) you'll work into thicker and thicker steel, as displayed here:

Back beveling or creating a relief edge isn't the same as thinning out the secondary edge, which is done by laying the blade flat on the stone or sharpening medium, because you're not left with the original edge geometry, and it will still be thicker than the original edge geometry. This is one aspect of knife maintenance that a system can't accomplish, I'm afraid. A knife that cuts through objects well is based on a relationship between these two edges and how acute (thin) they are.

 

[Komitadjie]

You SURE you've used a WEPS, man? It'd be REALLY tough to get more surface-feet-per-minute of abrasive over the blade than working both hands in overlapping sweeps to hit both sides at once, I'd think. No repositioning for knives less than a foot, no swapping rods or anything like that. Every TWO grits, just slide on a new set of paddles. Between the two on a paddle set, just flip 'em over.

To be entirely fair to, well, the REST of the world, trying to say that one method is faster 'cause one of the world's top-ten can do it by that method faster than a newbie can do it with another... That's kinda like griping that nobody should use a car, 'cause Usain Bolt can make it to the grocery store faster on foot.

 

[somber]

reposition? reclamp?

you think you can do more strokes with a stone than you can with a WE? you clearly have NO IDEA how a WE works

You wouldn't have to reposition or re-clamp the Wicked Edge if you were sharpening say a six-inch knife? Or a 10-inch chefs knife?

Please find a convexed edge knife, and show me how you can reprofile and sharpen it in less than 10 minutes. I'd love to see that video

All freehanded edges are convexed by nature. It's impossible to hold an angle exact while freehand sharpening. I don't have anything to prove, but if you don't trust me on what I say, why would you trust me if I posted a video of it being done? Believe it or don't, that's entirely your prerogative.

 

[BePrepared]

ALSO, i noticed your post about secondary edges... i don't do those... i sharpen a single, primary edge.

 

[somber]

You SURE you've used a WEPS, man? It'd be REALLY tough to get more surface-feet-per-minute of abrasive over the blade than working both hands in overlapping sweeps to hit both sides at once, I'd think. No repositioning for knives less than a foot, no swapping rods or anything like that. Every TWO grits, just slide on a new set of paddles. Between the two on a paddle set, just flip 'em over.

To be entirely fair to, well, the REST of the world, trying to say that one method is faster 'cause one of the world's top-ten can do it by that method faster than a newbie can do it with another... That's kinda like griping that nobody should use a car, 'cause Usain Bolt can make it to the grocery store faster on foot.

I admit I don't have the hands on time you guys do, but I've used one before. By it's nature (clamping the blade into position) you're going to need to reposition the blade on longer knives, which you admitted you have to do on blades over 12-inches. And I understand how quickly you can grind with the wicked edge, and both sides at the same time, but I'm speaking to systems in general, like the EP, Lansky, or Spyderco Sharpmaker.

What's great is that no one mentions what happens to the tips of knives when using a system that is sharpening from a locked position:

 

[BePrepared]

You wouldn't have to reposition or re-clamp the Wicked Edge if you were sharpening say a six-inch knife? Or a 10-inch chefs knife?



All freehanded edges are convexed by nature. It's impossible to hold an angle exact while freehand sharpening. I don't have anything to prove, but if you don't trust me on what I say, why would you trust me if I posted a video of it being done? Believe it or don't, that's entirely your prerogative.

No. I sharpened my 7.5" TGLB yesterday. No reposition

I sharpened my 10" chefs knife and Santoku the day before. No reposition.

The system produces a perfectly flat edge with no variation from tip to grip. It is perfectly repeatable which means that once it is reprofiled, i can start with the 600 stone and then go to the ceramics. Total time is about 3-5 minutes depending on the length of the knife and the level of polish that i want on the edge

 

[somber]

ALSO, i noticed your post about secondary edges... i don't do those... i sharpen a single, primary edge.

Then your grinding your primary edge into thicker and thicker steel and eventually it will wedge or you'll notice a significant decrease in the cutting performance.

 

[BePrepared]

I'm speaking to systems in general, like the EP, Lansky, or Spyderco Sharpmaker.

What's great is that no one mentions what happens to the tips of knives when using a system that is sharpening from a locked position:

In Red. I am not... i chose this system because it is the best on the market. I am not arguing in favor of alternate methods.

What happens to points? They get sharper? Nothing at all happens to them. the WE does NOT round points. This worried the heck out of me until i actually got to try it out, but it doesn't have the slightest negative impact on the point

it actually returned a point that i had rounded off with my Work Sharp to it's original needle sharpness.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Murray (my employer) sharpens knives his knives, Hitachi White Steel #1 (a super steel) in about three minutes before they're sent out to clients and his knives are known for being the sharpest out-the-box edges in the knife world - and he does it all while going over the daily agenda.

Because Murray decided to use white#1 exclusively, doesn't elevate it to super steel. Otherwise 1095 would consider super duper steel too. White#1, 2, blue#1,2, V2,52100,etc, are known to be easy to sharpen, so doing it while dealing with his daily agenda or brushing teeth is :yawn:

In my 5yrs experience EP, I didn't learned much about sharpening until I freehand. Ppl should enjoy sharp-hobby, their way.

 

[somber]

Look at the height of the tip when compared to the height of the flat, you can see it getting higher as it moves up the belly of the blade. How can you say that that is the same?

 

[BePrepared]

Look at the height of the tip when compared to the height of the flat, you can see it getting higher as it moves up the belly of the blade. How can you say that that is the same?

I'm saying that it doesn't happen when you use it properly. I won't know for sure if it happens on a 12" knife until i use it on one, but it didn't happen on my TGLB or the 2 kitchen knives