will Micarta dust turn my garage into a toxic site?

OccamsBlade

OccamsBlade

Jim Dobbler
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Messages
227
Hello,

I'm new to the site and knife making in general. Although, I have been stalking the forums for some time now, as this seems to be the go to site for anything that has to do with knives and knife making. Thank you BladeForums!

So, as the title suggests, the idea of cutting and grinding Micarta on a regular basis is really freaking me out...and I haven't even made my first knife yet! At the moment I'm purchasing tools and setting up my work area. I have cut and sanded Micarta once before and was shocked at the amount of fine dust it produces. And yes, I was wearing a P95 respirator, and plan on upgrading to P100. After I was done I vacuumed as much of it up as I could, but still felt that a good amount had floated to areas of the garage that are full of...things and stuff. Just the thought of small microscopic Micarta particles coating my daughters tricycle makes me ill. My work area is in the corner of my 2 car garage that is attached to the house, and has all kinds of junk in it. I do plan on getting a Shop Fox air filtration system, for the airborne stuff, before working with grip material again. From what I've read it gets most of the dust, but invariably leaves a small amount behind. And the garage is the only space I have to set up for the time being. Am I being a drama queen and not worry that much about it, or should I hold off on working with Micarta until I can set up in a self contained space? What does everyone else do, that are set up in their car garage, to keep that horrible dust from getting all over everything?

Thanks!
 
The best source of information should be the manufacturer of the micarta. They should be able to provide the best practice for handling the material. The supplier should be able to tell you as well. This post may be best in the knifemaker's section.
 
Thanks for the replies so far guys. I did check out the data sheet a while back for Micarta when I first looked into making grips out of the stuff, as well as what people have said about it. Looks like it's only a problem when you inhale the fumes and airborne particles.

So I guess my next question is should I spend the money on a dust collector first, before I buy the air filtration system then? I just put a nice chunk of money into tools and can't really afford buying both right now. Found a couple of 1HP Delta dust collectors on craigslist for under $200. Guess that makes more sense. Catching the dust at the source before it becomes airborne...for the most part.

Oh, and sorry I posted in the wrong section.
 
A P95 mask isn't going to do much to protect your lungs. You need to have a real respirator with the appropriate filters. Preferably a full mask that covers the eyes as well. While your at it, get some ear plugs too, the dust gets everywhere. Once it gets into your lungs it causes all sorts of bad things Cancer being the worst. Dust collectors are a good idea, but they will not catch all the dust, it's a false sense of security.
 
I have the 3M Tekk respirator. Will eventually upgrade to the full face. Heard that the P100 filters will do the job, so I plan on getting those for my respirator. Yeah, might just be a good idea to go with more organic materials for now, until I learn of a system that can reduce the risk of using Micarta to almost nothing. Being a beginner and all it's not worth using a material that might potentially kill/harm me or a loved one, lol.
 
I've read a little on how stuff like asbestos gives you lung cancer. In that case it's a fine fiber that breaks into continually finer fragments, irritating glands in your lungs. While asbestos is especially bad, the bottom line is any dust of a certain size is going to have the same effect eventually.
 
Be aware that some of the resinous hardwoods are way more toxic than micarta. Cocobolo is one of the worst. If you get enough of it's dust in your lungs it will set up a fungus infection that's hard to get rid of. It darned near killed Bing Crosby who spent some time at a sawmill in Brazil while shooting location shots for a movie. I've used micarta for fixtures for years without any problems other than the nasty smell you get when machining it.
 
Any kind of dust is bad for your lungs. The main problem with Micarta is that it offgasses Phenols and other nasty stuff like Formaldehyde while grinding it. The fumes are toxic but they will dissipate, the dust itself shouldn't be any more toxic than the original material it was made from, paper, linen, canvas, etc.. However, the dust from G-10 is fiberglass and we all know how nasty that stuff is.
 
Anytime you breathe anything besides God's good air is a detriment to your health. I spent over 40 years breathing Bondo dust, paint fumes, and over the last ten years, steel dust along with handle grinding dust, and who knows about the fumes from epoxies and other knife related materials.

I have managed to about kill myself. Do yourself a favor and take all the safety precautions that you can. Just when you think you are safe, take a few more precautions.

WORD..................... Robert
 
darrin sanders said:
Any kind of dust is bad for your lungs. The main problem with Micarta is that it offgasses Phenols and other nasty stuff like Formaldehyde while grinding it. The fumes are toxic but they will dissipate, the dust itself shouldn't be any more toxic than the original material it was made from, paper, linen, canvas, etc.. However, the dust from G-10 is fiberglass and we all know how nasty that stuff is.
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Exactly. The offgassing from being heated is toxic. Not the dry dust.

P100 masks only stop particulate matter folks, not gas. You need active chemical vapor filtering to get rid of the toxic vapors. Filters come in two types, those that stop particles and those that neutralize chemicals. Or are available as combined filters/filter systems. Ideally, you shouldn't be able to smell anything. If you can, you aren't stopping the off-gassed chemical vapors.

Your garage will be messy, but not a toxic waste site...
 
LucyCustomKnives said:
Exactly. The offgassing from being heated is toxic. Not the dry dust.

P100 masks only stop particulate matter folks, not gas. You need active chemical vapor filtering to get rid of the toxic vapors. Filters come in two types, those that stop particles and those that neutralize chemicals. Or are available as combined filters/filter systems. Ideally, you shouldn't be able to smell anything. If you can, you aren't stopping the off-gassed chemical vapors.

Your garage will be messy, but not a toxic waste site...
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Interesting, so what filters are good?
 
MSDS sheets for the various phenolic laminates are widely available. Here is one for Phenolic-paper Laminate - what we generally call 'Paper Micarta'.

Here are two exerpts that are of interest:

Hazardous Decomposition Products: CO, CO2, Phenol, Formaldehyde if heated in excess of 300 deg. C.
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300 degrees Celsius is 572 degrees Fahrenheit.

Also:

May cause Moderate eye, skin, and throat irritation. No known delayed (Subchronic & Chronic) effects.
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You should really be wearing at the very least a full face cartridge respirator . If you go with something from 3M you cant go wrong. I have worked in the Commercial Painting Industry my whole working life and that's what we use. Like posted above our rule is if you can smell it through the mask the mask is not working. Try not to be cheap here. This is important .

In my shop a respirator is used whenever the grinder is turned on. I have a med. size exhaust fan to the outside and also run a very strong central vac that we traded for that is run under the wheel when we do wood or micarta. I know I could go even further and I will . I just always have my eye out looking for anything that will help pull dust out of the shop. Stuff is no good.
 
Awesome, thank you all so much for the info! I'm feeling more at ease now with the idea of working with micarta when the time comes. I've decided I'm just going to focus on the steel for now, and getting a feel for the new tools I've acquired in the past few days. The Kalamazoo 1sm just arrived! The next thing is a piece of metal that I can maybe get a few small neck knives out of before moving onto something with grip material. In the meantime I can do some more research on a proper respirator...and give my wallet a break before buying a dust collector and air filtration unit.

Oh, and any particular respirators I should look into that will do the job?
 
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I take the wood grinder outside for the most part, but will hit a corner that needs ground in the garage. I've never used a respirator outside of work, but that's obviously not a good plan.

I'm inclined to think that my very low exposure is not as big a deal as we make it out to be, but that's part of the problem with this stuff. You mostly don't know that you're screwed until you're screwed. I'm crazy about ppe at work, I think it's time to move up past the dust masks I've been using.

Anyone grind wet? I've heard a number of people that make (many) g10 scales say to work wet. Would that work with micarta as well?

K, now I'm getting freaked out just thinking about this. :eek:
 
TheWeatherman said:
Interesting, so what filters are good?
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Each manufacturer has different filters... You can check their websites for the specific filters that cover particulates and vaporous substances. Most have charts that will outline their filters and what they cover. Match the MSDS for the stuff you're using with the filter and you are good to go.

There have been several threads here, some rather recently that got pretty detailed about this subject. Search should find them for you.

Not that other systems are worse... I use a full-face system by MSA. For my P100 particulate filters, MSA p/n 817588 (anything that removes 99.97% of particulate matter is considered HEPA, so you may see that term.) For vapors, MSA p/n 815366 which are combination of P100 and chemical covering numerous hazardous vapors from just about anything in the normal shop. The lens is ANSI standard for impact as well, so it serves the purpose of safety shield as well.

Grinding metal and wood I use my P100's. Anything else that gets hot or smells bad gets the others...

There are a few gasses that you cannot filter or at least mitigate passively. We are unlikely to encounter them in the shop, but they are out there. From time to time I encounter them in my work, and for those times we wear SCBA's...

I have been considering going to a forced air system which takes air from a clean source and pumps it to a hood. This, IMHO is ideal and cheaper in the long run.

Edit: To add... It has been mentioned in other threads along this line. Should be stated again. Don't let the fact you don't have one of the top end systems, don't let it stop you from wearing at least some form of filtration. Heck, a bandanna is better than nothing...
 
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I take my 4x36 outside... AND still wear a respirator. I guess the neighbors think I'm nuts. That's okay by me. And like Strigamort, I'm a low exposure guy, but I like lower than low... and my wife likes not having the wood/ivory dust all over everything in the garage.
 
For those of you who grind knives in your garage then you might like to invest in a couple commercial type stand fans like those sold by Northern Tool. I have one that almost touchesmy shoulder when I am sitting at my grinder and another one a few feet away from my sander for wood and Micarta, etc. I open my garage doors and turn the fans on high and then wear a respirator. The dust blows out and I leave the fans on for a half hour when I am through. Of course I sweep and vacuum when I can but this gets 85 % of the dust out of my garage. In the winter it is invigorating but pleasant in the summer. My grinder is placed about a foot from my garage doors and the wind lows directly on the contact wheel. The only thing I don't like to grind is carbon fiber. Desert Ironwood makes me sneeze and cough too but Micarta doesn't phase me. I wear glasses and don't like full face respirators so I wear a half face and then leave the garage when I am through for at least an hour. Do anything but breath the dust. My opinion only.
 
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