Winter camp - Daughter gets cold, what do you do?

[TheMadIndian]

I was going to go on a solo backpack trip to start off the new year and my daughter (16) asks to go, her setup previously wouldn't get her below 30F, a Teton +20F Trailhead and two reflectix pads one 24" and one 48" both 6' long, she sees her brother and I with our MSS and asks for her own the last time we're out in Oct despite the weight (I was trying to keep her lightweight on a budget), I got her the bivy and intermediate bag for Christmas so I obliged thinking she'd be ok as I've always been too warm and her brother doesn't even use a pad or quilt or anything just the mss and the noah 12 in storm mode and he's been in the 20s, she asks to bring her reflectix pads I say no take the SOL Thermarest and just put it in the mss and off we go. Hike in 3 mi and its 33F and flurries and takes 2 hours. We finish setting up camp just at dark and there was no real wood to be had, the shelter it had been picked clean so we made a small fire and we have a couple hot dogs each and boil water for her hot chocolate, I boil water and put it in a canteen for her to keep with her in the hammock and we're out of useable wood. She goes off to bed because she's getting cold and only has a shell to put on and her fleece pants, its 28F she takes off the puffer zips up the bag and says she's warm I tell her to make sure she doesn't sweat and to manage her temps the best she can. She unzips the bivy and the intermediate to her hip and her kelty noah 12 in storm mode to the ground. Within 10 mins she tells me she's cold, I ask if she changed her socks she says no and puts on fresh wool socks and says she's feeling better, she's in a midweight base layer and a fleece top, fleece pants and frogg toggs over pants. Within an hour she tells me she's cold all over but not really her back, I have her take off the fleece, and put on my heavyweight base layer and put the fleece back on and take the frogg toggs off and put her jeans back on and then the frogg toggs back on and she zips both bags all the way up I sit in the shelter with her and I'm warm in the shelter and she says she's getting warm. 30 mins later she tells me she's cold again, I have her put on her hat and give her my heavy gloves. 30 mins later she says she's cold again, I take two foot warmers and throw them in the bottom of the intermediate bag and two hand warmers by her hips zip her all up and took an emergency blanket and covered her hammock, within 10 mins she tells me she's getting warm in an hour I check in again she's not cold or warm but comfortable. I tell her to wake me up if she gets cold. I still had two more of my layers to offer her plus she still had her puffer jacket and her shell she could have used. I was still worried & I felt was running out of options if this or adding the rest of the layers didn't work and was starting to consider hiking out but its a moderate hike during the day and would be tough with headlamps at night, there is also a high level of coyote activity and coyotes while afraid of us, coydogs are not and I didn't want to add to my risk if that's what was running around out there. I felt my final option would have been to put her into my MSS which had all three bags and I was cooking in it and had it half open as it was, so I think I would have been fine in her bag. It got to 21 and windchill I'm assuming was in the teens but she was fine the rest of the night, there was a lot of condensation on the emergency blankets and her hammock was wet in the morning but the mss kept her and her bag dry. I didn't get her the patrol bag because I felt she could use the one she had already and I don't think the whole MSS will fit in her Teton 4000 but she wants to try again and borrow her brother's patrol bag but this time we'll stick close to home

What would you have done different?

Here's some pics

she already uses an emergency blanket as an underblanket so I used the shock cords for it and a stick and made a toggle to keep it together around the foot of the hammock

I left the part over her head open and used small rocks as toggles to weight either side of the blanket to keep it in place from the blowing winds but make it easy enough for her to get out of it

Outside her shelter looking in

 

[Captain Airyca]

Ugh, being cold is the worst. I can relate to your daughters experience. I get cold super easy at night outside. I'm not an expert on hammock camping, so someone will have to weigh in on that.

How much did she eat? I've noticed that sometimes when I've been hiking and exerting a lot of energy when it's cold my body has a hard time keeping me warm unless I've had a real good meal. Additionally, it's a pain in the neck, but I carry a fleece blanket in addition to the mess of clothes and sleeping gear when I hike just to wrap around my feet inside my sleeping bag. that helps a lot. Also, sleeping with the bag over your head, with a hat on.

I've also found since I've been married snuggling works the best, but that's probably not an option for her in the near future.

 

[gadgetgeek]

One thing I've noticed as far as women getting cold, is that their thermals and other clothes tend towards a tighter fit. This pushes blood out of the skin, so while the core stays warm, you feel uncomfortably cold. Lower metabolism, and probably a certain degree less conditioning (some feel the cold less) those would have made a certain difference. I've found that the killer for me is a hot drink and a fire. As soon as I'm out of the fire area, I'm freezing up, but it feels so good to be warm!

I think you made some good choices, you still had options for staying warm, so that's good. Condensation rather than frost tells me that the system is moving moisture out, which is good, but that the system is also loosing a lot of heat. She probably wasn't loosing it out the bottom if her back wasn't cold, but out the sides where the insulation gets compressed by the hammock, I think the reflectix pads would have helped there, as the 48 would have come up the sides more. I've used the AMK sheet in a similar way, but found it was only good as a windbreak at that distance since it can't trap warm air well. It was far more effective right under me, although I did get soaked pretty quickly. Not saying its bad to have it out there, wind is bad enough on its own, and the more layers of reduction you add, the better your insulation can work.

I think she will likely need a different system to you and your son. I'm concerned that you are getting some reduced returns due to all the layering, although I'm unfamiliar with the gear you describe. She might get a far better and lighter system out of underquilts. At the end of the day, some people can sleep cold, some cannot. And from the sounds of it, once her body got figured out that it was cold, things went along better.

 

[Danke42]

1) If you have to go to the can; go to the can. Don't stay in your bag avoiding fresh air. A full bladder will suck more heat away from you. That hammock rig looks like a real pain to crawl out of in the dark.

2) Go back to back yard camping and practice to refine the gear and setting up. When you get it wrong there the cost of bailing out is no big deal.

For me on any winter camping trip I've done we've stayed very warm in a snow cave or tent etc. when well insulated. It looks like you're setup there on bare ground which can be miserable. The best sketch plan I can give is some sort of 2-3 person tent that you can both be in that will let you seal out all breeze around the bottom and vent excess heat out the top. Being able to have a lamp or stove generating heat but not killing you is a huge plus. That might not be in your comfort zone; you basically need one person to focus on that and the ventilation. That means all night you're taking shifts if you want the heat going. That also means hiking in that tent, heat source, and fuel. For sleep a thick air mattress, something you have to pump up and an arctic sleeping bag system (down) with a sweat liner. Again all heavy (and expensive) to pack in and out. Maybe heavy will be good, keep you warm while you pack it all in.

Anyways air is your friend; anything you can do to put still and warm air between yourself and the cold will help. That's why snow is great as it's mostly air.

 

[TheMadIndian]

thanks for all the responses

 

[TheMadIndian]

Ugh, being cold is the worst. I can relate to your daughters experience. I get cold super easy at night outside. I'm not an expert on hammock camping, so someone will have to weigh in on that.

How much did she eat? I've noticed that sometimes when I've been hiking and exerting a lot of energy when it's cold my body has a hard time keeping me warm unless I've had a real good meal. Additionally, it's a pain in the neck, but I carry a fleece blanket in addition to the mess of clothes and sleeping gear when I hike just to wrap around my feet inside my sleeping bag. that helps a lot. Also, sleeping with the bag over your head, with a hat on.

I've also found since I've been married snuggling works the best, but that's probably not an option for her in the near future.

She had 3 hotdogs with buns and a cup of trail mix on top of the cup of hot chocolate and said she was full, her feet are a common problem, I've been thinking of getting her some down booties. Snuggling was a thought I had too, if I could have figured out a way to get the bags to zip together but I couldn't and didn't want to make matters worse.

 

[TheMadIndian]

1) If you have to go to the can; go to the can. Don't stay in your bag avoiding fresh air. A full bladder will suck more heat away from you. That hammock rig looks like a real pain to crawl out of in the dark.

2) Go back to back yard camping and practice to refine the gear and setting up. When you get it wrong there the cost of bailing out is no big deal.

For me on any winter camping trip I've done we've stayed very warm in a snow cave or tent etc. when well insulated. It looks like you're setup there on bare ground which can be miserable. The best sketch plan I can give is some sort of 2-3 person tent that you can both be in that will let you seal out all breeze around the bottom and vent excess heat out the top. Being able to have a lamp or stove generating heat but not killing you is a huge plus. That might not be in your comfort zone; you basically need one person to focus on that and the ventilation. That means all night you're taking shifts if you want the heat going. That also means hiking in that tent, heat source, and fuel. For sleep a thick air mattress, something you have to pump up and an arctic sleeping bag system (down) with a sweat liner. Again all heavy (and expensive) to pack in and out. Maybe heavy will be good, keep you warm while you pack it all in.

Anyways air is your friend; anything you can do to put still and warm air between yourself and the cold will help. That's why snow is great as it's mostly air.

She didn't get cold from not going to the bathroom just lack of sleep for an hour but she got out an in real easy, its easier than it looks to get out an in on your own, and she slept straight through from that point

 

[TheMadIndian]

One thing I've noticed as far as women getting cold, is that their thermals and other clothes tend towards a tighter fit. This pushes blood out of the skin, so while the core stays warm, you feel uncomfortably cold. Lower metabolism, and probably a certain degree less conditioning (some feel the cold less) those would have made a certain difference. I've found that the killer for me is a hot drink and a fire. As soon as I'm out of the fire area, I'm freezing up, but it feels so good to be warm!

I think you made some good choices, you still had options for staying warm, so that's good. Condensation rather than frost tells me that the system is moving moisture out, which is good, but that the system is also loosing a lot of heat. She probably wasn't loosing it out the bottom if her back wasn't cold, but out the sides where the insulation gets compressed by the hammock, I think the reflectix pads would have helped there, as the 48 would have come up the sides more. I've used the AMK sheet in a similar way, but found it was only good as a windbreak at that distance since it can't trap warm air well. It was far more effective right under me, although I did get soaked pretty quickly. Not saying its bad to have it out there, wind is bad enough on its own, and the more layers of reduction you add, the better your insulation can work.

I think she will likely need a different system to you and your son. I'm concerned that you are getting some reduced returns due to all the layering, although I'm unfamiliar with the gear you describe. She might get a far better and lighter system out of underquilts. At the end of the day, some people can sleep cold, some cannot. And from the sounds of it, once her body got figured out that it was cold, things went along better.

Thanks, I've got to see what I can do for quilts for her or maybe see how she does with the insulation she was used to, I know the MSS is far better than that teton bag she has so i think in part it was not bringing the reflectix and as you said the hammock compressing the sides

 

[Danke42]

She didn't get cold from not going to the bathroom just lack of sleep for an hour but she got out an in real easy, its easier than it looks to get out an in on your own, and she slept straight through from that point

Well she could just be overload keeping her up. Cold, new sounds, sleeping in a hammock instead of flat all coming together.

Also had a down hood you could wear with the bag to keep your head warm at night and it won't fall off or give you an itchy scalp or toque head. You can even wear the hood during breakfast to keep heat in.

 

[Captain Airyca]

She had 3 hotdogs with buns and a cup of trail mix on top of the cup of hot chocolate and said she was full, her feet are a common problem, I've been thinking of getting her some down booties. Snuggling was a thought I had too, if I could have figured out a way to get the bags to zip together but I couldn't and didn't want to make matters worse.

Sounds like enough food but yeah if her feet are a problem - one experience I've had is I was wearing really nice wool socks, but I didn't realize the elastic was too tight and it inhibited proper blood flow, which meant my feet were like ice anyway! Some down booties sounds nice!

 

[12345678910]

What would you have done different?

I would have hit enter a few times, give me some new lines and some spacing to read it all better.


Synthetics are cold for me.

I really like wool.



I read that all, no mention of long underwear, either tops or bottoms, no mention of a toque.

 

[Danke42]

I like combining merino wool and synthetics. Some folks can't wear wool though.

 

[TheMadIndian]

I would have hit enter a few times, give me some new lines and some spacing to read it all better.


Synthetics are cold for me.

I really like wool.



I read that all, no mention of long underwear, either tops or bottoms, no mention of a toque.

sorry for the wall of text

She had mid weight base layers I guess that's a thermal by Russell Athletic, they ahve light to heavy for varying warmth requirements and I gave her my heavy base as well

 

[TheMadIndian]

Sounds like enough food but yeah if her feet are a problem - one experience I've had is I was wearing really nice wool socks, but I didn't realize the elastic was too tight and it inhibited proper blood flow, which meant my feet were like ice anyway! Some down booties sounds nice!

I was looking at these

 

[TheMadIndian]

Well she could just be overload keeping her up. Cold, new sounds, sleeping in a hammock instead of flat all coming together.

Also had a down hood you could wear with the bag to keep your head warm at night and it won't fall off or give you an itchy scalp or toque head. You can even wear the hood during breakfast to keep heat in.

We live right off the AT and have a nice little spot we can get to within 1/4 mile hike in the woods we will be doing some testing before I bring her out any farther

 

[John A. Larsen]

Down booties never worked for me, probably as they get compressed inside the sleeping bag. i would put my parka over the bottom of my sleeping bag, that seemed to work. I would also keep a couple of candy bars handy, to add some fuel to the fire so to speak, later in the night. i had a tendency to put my head down into my bag, resulting in frost on the bag where it was close to my face. I started wearing a Norwegian pile cap, and a neoprene face mask and that worked well in temperatures down to about -30 degrees F. John

 

[kuuto]

The insulation underneath... was it just the thermarest? Attaching more material to make it bit wider around the shoulder area would help.

Down underquilt outside the hammock is the best method.

check for shug emery videos on utube or hammock forums, he's made a few showing some good winter hammock tips and techniques.

 

[gadgetgeek]

its not like she spent the entire night near hypothermic. just cold for a bit. I think between what she has figured out, and some of the thoughts from here, the next one will be better. The main thing is to realize that there are so many variables that you cannot control, she is going to have to figure a lot of it out for herself. Cold feet just being one aspect. A person can come up with as many hypotheses for how do to a thing, but when it comes down to the brass tacks, reality is going to dictate the requirements. The more chances she has to safely learn the better off she will be. Nothing wrong with waking up cold once and a while, and in fact it can be a benefit. I've found that sometimes those without experience can get into trouble because they sleep through it. hypothermia is one thing, but frostbite can be far worse, and people do sleep through it.

 

[Captain Airyca]

its not like she spent the entire night near hypothermic. just cold for a bit. I think between what she has figured out, and some of the thoughts from here, the next one will be better. The main thing is to realize that there are so many variables that you cannot control, she is going to have to figure a lot of it out for herself. Cold feet just being one aspect. A person can come up with as many hypotheses for how do to a thing, but when it comes down to the brass tacks, reality is going to dictate the requirements. The more chances she has to safely learn the better off she will be. Nothing wrong with waking up cold once and a while, and in fact it can be a benefit. I've found that sometimes those without experience can get into trouble because they sleep through it. hypothermia is one thing, but frostbite can be far worse, and people do sleep through it.

While I don't disagree with your ideals, anything anyone can do to make young people comfortable and happy in the woods is good in my book. It wasn't a desperate survival situation but we need to help people love the outdoors, not think they're gonna be miserable all night. A lot of my friends who didn't have good experiences outdoors as kids don't like the outdoors as adults and it's sad.

 

[gadgetgeek]

While I don't disagree with your ideals, anything anyone can do to make young people comfortable and happy in the woods is good in my book. It wasn't a desperate survival situation but we need to help people love the outdoors, not think they're gonna be miserable all night. A lot of my friends who didn't have good experiences outdoors as kids don't like the outdoors as adults and it's sad.

I would agree with your statement as well. I guess I was figuring the young lady in question didn't need to be coddled at this point as much (she asked to go camping with snow on the ground) As part of my job I try to help kids get more used to the outdoors. And I know what you mean, one bad experience can ruin people. I always come at it from the angle that teaching people how to make their situation better will make them more willing to try again, even if its not "fun" you can still have success. I'll fully admit, I hate being cold, and its kept me out of the woods more than once!