Winter camp - Daughter gets cold, what do you do?

[TheMadIndian]

Down booties never worked for me, probably as they get compressed inside the sleeping bag. i would put my parka over the bottom of my sleeping bag, that seemed to work. I would also keep a couple of candy bars handy, to add some fuel to the fire so to speak, later in the night. i had a tendency to put my head down into my bag, resulting in frost on the bag where it was close to my face. I started wearing a Norwegian pile cap, and a neoprene face mask and that worked well in temperatures down to about -30 degrees F. John

I just got myself a fleece face mask that has a breath bib worked great

The insulation underneath... was it just the thermarest? Attaching more material to make it bit wider around the shoulder area would help.

Down underquilt outside the hammock is the best method.

check for shug emery videos on utube or hammock forums, he's made a few showing some good winter hammock tips and techniques.

Yea it was just a thermarest and the space blanket as an underblanket to cut wind

Underquilts get expensive real quick when you're setting up the family and like I said if we go tarp or ground camping the mss will still work. I do however agree the UQ/TQ combo couldn't be beat. If I could I'd get the burrow and incubator 0F versions but that's damn near 1800 as compared to three thermarests and mss for 300 but the UQ/TQ in 3 & 4 season is the dream

Had I let her bring the reflectix pads she usually has who knows, I was worried about condensation and really changed her known setup by too many variables, I should have just upgraded the bag and left it there rather than removing insulation too

 

[TheMadIndian]

its not like she spent the entire night near hypothermic. just cold for a bit. I think between what she has figured out, and some of the thoughts from here, the next one will be better. The main thing is to realize that there are so many variables that you cannot control, she is going to have to figure a lot of it out for herself. Cold feet just being one aspect. A person can come up with as many hypotheses for how do to a thing, but when it comes down to the brass tacks, reality is going to dictate the requirements. The more chances she has to safely learn the better off she will be. Nothing wrong with waking up cold once and a while, and in fact it can be a benefit. I've found that sometimes those without experience can get into trouble because they sleep through it. hypothermia is one thing, but frostbite can be far worse, and people do sleep through it.

its funny you mention that because that is my worry with her. 2x I got hypothermia and the 2nd it turned into walking pneumonia when I did survival challenge in the boy scouts in the late 70s early 80s (I finally got it right from 12 on )

 

[flipe8]

I'd definitely consider staying closer to home to dial in your winter camping skills until your daughter figures out what works for her. You might have to accept you're gonna spend more money to make it work as well. We sometimes fill up Nalgene bottles with hot water before jumping in the fart sack. It keeps us warmer and we also keep it warmer so it's quicker to get to boiling in the morning. On winter climbs in the White Mountains, I know I've had to get out of my bag and do some jumping jacks more than once, because sometimes, you're just gonna be colder than you'd like.

On a side note, we're heading to Mt Katahdin for some climbing in a week, so I fully expect to be shivering for a couple nights

 

[baldtaco-II]

By far the easiest thing to do is to stick a hot water bottle in her bag.

It's a simple direct action. You don't have to use more body heat to warm up the trapped air in new layer X. It's a lot warmer than the body heat of another person, and it is easier to position. I kicks out way more heat than any of those handwarmer type doodads. Any water you can find will do, and you can cycle it round and round. If you've got a dedicated rubber jobbie it can provide an immediate sense of snuggly bug comfort. I've got about five sizes of 'em, from phone size to typing paper. The smallest are a tiny penalty to carry. That said, any water bottle you have that'll take the heat will work fine. Also, you place control back in the hands of the cold person. They can regulate exactly to their own needs. Who wouldn't feel like a bit of a wally to admit they were too cold and that they needed person X to quit what they were doing and buddy up with them. Short of Scotty beaming one up to a warm bath this is going to be the lulliest solution.

 

[TheMadIndian]

I actually forgot my nalgene but that's why I tried the canteen clearly they aren't the same. I need to remember what works for me wont work for her and have to stay close to home to test the next one. Supposed to be freezing rain this weekend so the temps won't be cold enough but that could be another test in itself

 

[Pioneer Valley]

Ever try taking a rock from the fire ring and wrapping it. Put that in your sleeping bag. Better than a hand warmer. Thats what i do. People have done it for hundreds of years.

 

[panzertroop]

The under insulation is inadequate for her at those temps. Sleeping bags compress and lose their insulation and the SOL bivy does not breath well is it could be trapping her moisture making her colder. Everyone sleeps differently so what works for you may not work for her.

As stated before;
Warm food and drinks just before bed for fuel
Better under insulation
Breathable vapor barrier (bivies dont alway work)
Possibly changing clothes before bed to warm synthetic layers
No jeans (tight and restricts blood flow)
No Frogg toggs in bed! They dont breath
Think of fluffy dry layers

Watch this video he talks about reflectix under pads
[video=youtube;mekhYiSaNz4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mekhYiSaNz4[/video]

 

[TheMadIndian]

The under insulation is inadequate for her at those temps. Sleeping bags compress and lose their insulation and the SOL bivy does not breath well is it could be trapping her moisture making her colder. Everyone sleeps differently so what works for you may not work for her.

As stated before;
Warm food and drinks just before bed for fuel
Better under insulation
Breathable vapor barrier (bivies dont alway work)
Possibly changing clothes before bed to warm synthetic layers
No jeans (tight and restricts blood flow)
No Frogg toggs in bed! They dont breath
Think of fluffy dry layers

Watch this video he talks about reflectix under pads
[video=youtube;mekhYiSaNz4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mekhYiSaNz4[/video]

I didn't know that about the frogg toggs and the jeans I normally wouldn't have told her to use and I should have not made her change from the reflectix to the thermarest, she had never gotten condensation before with reflectix but I figured with temps in the teens she would. She needs another test

I think I'm going to keep an eye open for snugpak setups to go back on sale maybe there is a way to pair their underblanket with their cocoon

 

[gadgetgeek]

A lot of folks that use a 3/4 length under, supplement the system around the legs and feet as that insulation gets less compression, and it is easier to prevent cold spots from inside the hammock. So I think you are on the right track with that thought.

 

[Avidknifeuser]

Having hiked and camped in temperatures below 0, with all levels of gear and being fairly well versed/trained on the subject, I thought I was ready to take my female partner winter camping. I absolutely was not. Rated temps on gear at the best of times are over stated, but they seem to apply even less to females... There bodies seem to conduct temperature different then men. That was 2 years ago and 8 or so winter camps and were still learning things. Heres the short list... as it relates to your post.

Keep the feet warm. Primaloft slippers, wool socks, and hand/foot warmers, whatever we got. If her feet are cold she will "feel" cold all night.
Pre-warming the sleeping bag makes a huge difference. We throw a couple hot water bottles in their, sometimes metal with sleeve, sometimes nalgene.
Thermarest makes the best winter air mattress, though its expensive. Even for a hammock we use an air mattress of sometime, just to trap warm air.
She wears breathable polypro or wool layers. The water/sweat/condensation will make her colder if it doesnt wick away.
Look at woobies or jungle blanket for an ok compressible insulation layer. The attachment loops on a wobbie make them easy to use as an underquilt.
Sugar produces the most immediate uptake in metabolism, so she always has hot chocolate and snickers bar.
Beanie. She always sleeps in a wool beanie. Its like feet bur on the opposite end, and the never stays in the mummy part anyway.

And Lastly, not nit picking at you, but that seeping bag is just nowhere near adequate. Teton over rates their temps in my experience, and thats a survival temp not a comfort temp, and for the girls I've dated I've had to add or subtract? about ten degrees. So if a sleeping bag says its comfortable at 30 degrees, then I assume it will be good down to 40 for a lady, and thats true for all of them I've dated. You can probably find a mil surp sleeping bag for cheap, or next time add the reflective blanket inside of the sleeping bag. Maybe stick another woobie inside to eak out some more warmth. The bag itself should be keeping most wind at bay and the IR won't work on the other side of the bag. Its just acting as a giant heat sink.

Hope any or some of this helps! I know the struggle.

 

[justsomedude]

Here's an unorganized list of pointers I have learned over the years to help keep from feeling cold while camping:

1) Don't try to sleep too soon. If you hike a long day and participate fully in camp chores and activities you can get yourself to the point where falling asleep is easy and comfort is not as much a concern. If you're thinking about turning in just because you're cold then you're going to have a bad time. Try prepping some wood for the breakfast fire, gathering more water or going for a sunset walk to burn the last of the gas in your tank.

2) Wear wool base-layers. You don't need to worry about over-layering -> sweating nearly as much if you have a nice layer of merino to wick moisture away from the skin. I like to layer in the following order: Merino wool base (socks, undies, tshirt, stocking cap) -> Merino mid (long undies, long tshirt) -> Down and/or fleece jacket -> Wind+water shell. Cotton is the absolute worst, jeans are frequently cited as a beginner's garment mistake but another big one is socks and hat. Socks should be at least 60% Merino or they'll get way too sweaty, likewise I find it much better to wear two mid-weight merino pairs than one heavy-weight. In the harshest of cold I will wear a silk liner sock, a midweight merino hiking sock then a heavyweight merino sock.

3) Pre-warm your bag. There's a big difference in my experience between going to bed with a hot water bottle and putting the bottle in 30-45 minutes before turning in. As soon as you get into a cold bag a lot of your body heat will be lost to warming up the material and air around you. Even if you bring a warmer in with you it will prevent the loss only from a small part of your body. If you warm the bag before-hand then you get to keep all of the body heat you bring in with you.

4) Try a quilt instead of a bag. I know this is a costly suggestion if you've already bought a bag but I encourage everybody who's even remotely interested in camping to consider a down backpacking quilt instead of a bag. Bags waste a ton of weight on the down you compress with your body and are far less versatile than quilts. When hammock camping especially you lose a insulation due to being compressed from all sides, with a quilt you can let the sides hang down over the outside of the hammock.

 

[TheMadIndian]

I appreciate the suggestions

The other thing I realized is I need to get a checklist so things aren't forgotten

I ordered her the snugpak underblanket and hammock quilt, we know that it will only get her to 30 but we're going to get two of those Costco down throws and use one under and one over and do some backyard testing.

Worse case she'll have a good three season set that packs better than the mss and isn't constrictive like the Teton bag and her goal was one night a month. Maybe I can still get her there

 

[gadgetgeek]

On the right track.

Avidknifeuser, Even if the bags follow the EN rating, thats only for 4 hours uninterrupted sleep. The EN is better than nothing, since it is a standard, but I don't know of any commercial bag that is close to its actual rating, apart from some very specialized stuff. I agree that quilts are better in a hammock, but unless you have a bridge it would be hard to hang the quilt over the sides. Very tricky in an asym.

 

[LostViking]

Cold can make you miserable. I think a lot of folks sleep colder than others. Especially some women. But in reality many men are the same.

I find late Februray or early March a great time to take new folks out to try winter camping. Not because it won't be as cold. It might or might not be. But because of the additional amount of sunlight. When it is dark by 16:00 it makes for a long night. Especially with no available fire wood. Perhaps a recon trip prior to the overnight to find and stash some wood.

I think being acclimated would help too. Spending as much time out doors as possible prior to the trip. The body tends to adjust to its environment.

Cheap fixes, Many you already did.
Hot water bottle in the bag. Or a few of those chemical hand or body warmers tossed in. They work by the fire as well.

Not a hammock guy so no feedback there.

If on the ground in cold weather, closed cell pad, then another thermarest on top of that. I use a Big Agnes insulated air core on top of a cheap blue closed cell pad. You use some acronyms I am not familiar with.

I am a tarp guy, I like the air movement. Many folks like the still air of a tent. Especially if there was no fire to look at. A fire not only warms the body, it relaxes the mind.

Hat or balaclava, is a must. You mentioned dry socks, also a great idea.

If you have good ground/bottom insulation and still have to wear a ton of clothes in the bag to stay warm. You need a better bag. It doesn't matter how you sleep in it. It matters how she sleeps in it. Also try not to breathe into the bag. It just wets the insulation.

If your not in bear territory, a thermos of hot chocolate can add some heat and calories in the middle of the night. Wake up cold, slug down some cocoa and go back to sleep rewarmed.

For the feet. I use and recommend Steger Mukluks. Hands down the best foot wear I have ever used for cold weather camping. You can even get them in some fashionable ones now for the young lady. I use the Arctics. Buy an extra pair of felt liners and use them to sleep in if you really need to.
http://www.mukluks.com/

When in extreme cold we use this drink called "The Northwest Passage" basically instant hot spiced cider with Butter and brown sugar melted in. Plenty of carbs and fat to stoke the body's furnace to help it keep itself warm.

Merino wool on the inside and middle, then add an outer insulation layer and a wind shell. Top and bottom

Wintergreen Northern Wear makes some great winter pants and anoraks. They are not cheap. But my Anorak is over twenty years old and still has much life left in it. Same for my shell pants.
http://www.wintergreennorthernwear.com/

As was already pointed out, do not use tight fitting clothes. You do not want to hinder circulation. But you do want to trap as much air as possible. Tight garments can't do that.

The mukluks and anorak I mention have taken me comfortably down into -40F in northern Minnesota and Montana, and they are staples of my gear here in the Adirondacks. Where it usually remains in the balmy -20 to -30 range. And as an added bonus they are both made in the U.S.A. in Minnesota. Can't recommend them enough.

Winter camping is always an experiment. Every time is different. Some days you feel great, some days not so much. Staying hydrated is key. It seems counter productive because of having to pee in the middle of the night. But it will keep you much warmer in the long run. In cold weather, your body need blodd to flow.mand that happens much more readily if you are hydrated.

Get up and pee as you as you are thinking you need to go. The longer you wait, the worse it gets.

As noted above, test fire this stuff in the yard or close to home until you get it dialed in. Make sure your daughter has at least as good of gear as you do, if not better. If she is into this stuff, do your best to keep her into it.

Debrief when you get home.
Where was she cold,
When did she get cold,
How long was she cold before she acted on it.

Women have different bodies than men. They are more susceptible to many things because of that. They have so much more going on. Factor that in.

 

[TheMadIndian]

@LostViking - That's some pricey stuff but I guess if you had to spend a lot of time in negative temps you need to make the investment. Unfortunately . this caught my eye, I guess I'll be saving up

I just found my Kakadu drover jacket the other night and that fleece would go perfect in it once I finish reproofing it, I used to use this all the time, it rolls up fairly compact too, I used to carry it on the bike or the bottom of my daypack

Seems its not available currently toohttp://us.kakaduaustralia.com/collections/the-drovers-coat/products/5o01

 

[Rick Marchand]

I loves me some cold weather trekking!

Much has already been suggested. I will restate a few things that I feel are important and have worked in my experience in the cold.

- cold weather/winter hammock camping pretty much requires an underquilt. Can you get by without? Yes. But it will usually mean a heavier system with more margin of error. A properly fitted underquilt can be expensive but you can also rig up a wool blanket, poncho liners, spare sleeping bag, etc to hang under the hammock.

- Hot water bottle. A nalgene filled with water, tea or hot chocolate is perfect. You can place it where you need it. Slip a thermal sock over it to make it more comfortable and less likely to slip around on you.

- Keep your kidneys warm. Just as important as your feet and head.

- DO NOT BREATH INTO YOUR BAG. No matter how cold your nose gets. If you a slinging a vapor barrier/SOL blanket around your hammock, leave the top open to vent.

- Get up to pee. Don't hold it in ... get it over with. You will sleep better.

- Air out your gear everyday. I have been experimenting with a vapor barrier bag inside my system and am digging it. I wear a thin base layer. In the morning, its a bit damp inside ... so you need to turn it inside out and either dry it by hand or let it freeze and shake off the ice. It keeps your insulation nice and dry.

Keep having fun!
Rick

 

[Grease]

Watch this video he talks about reflectix under pads
[video=youtube;mekhYiSaNz4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mekhYiSaNz4[/video]

Shug is awesome. His pod system is pretty bombproof for cold camping, too. Shove your whole bed & hammock inside a sleeping bag so you can't compress the insulation in it. Then wrap up in whatever blankets/bags/pads you want in your hammock which is cocooned inside the sleeping bag, and you stay toasty. Shug did a trip in that where his thermometer reached it's lower limit (-40) and he stayed toasty warm.

 

[TheMadIndian]

The snugpak stuff showed up today, we're thinking of testing this setup
Kelty Noah 12 in storm mode
Moskito Kakoon
Snugpak under blanket
Reflectix pad in the hammock
Teton Trailhead +20F inside the snugpak hammock quilt

We ruled out the intermediate bag for now due to weight and space. We are hoping this gets her to the teens without additional boosters

One day for myself I'd like to get a nice quilt set if I can save up its just hard justify the money & to let go of the mss its worked so great for so long and in so many temp ranges.

I appreciate all the comments and ideas, keeping it fun and safe will keep your kids coming out or even asking you to go

 

[h minus]

I believe that using a hammock in the winter was a major contributing factor. I was born and raised in a tropical island in the Caribbean, and there were to things that everybody owned; a hammock and a machete. The hammock allows airflow underneath to keep a person cool and of course, to avoid the laying on the wet ground. I believe that in the case of your daughter she would've been better served with a ground shelter and a thick layer of natural insulation under her sleeping pad. Just my two cents.

 

[panzertroop]

Of course it was the contributing factor. And yes based on everyones replies we all know that hammocks are cooler to sleep in because of the increase airflow below them. But if you took the time to read any replies or had any experience hammock camping you would know that plenty of people use hammocks in winter. It's a matter of proper insulation and technique. Folks have been doing this for years and in extreme cold conditions. It's a preferred method for many.

Watch this video
[video=youtube;HDd1Hc3_v8Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDd1Hc3_v8Q[/video]