Winter Clothing, especially Canadian

Marion David Poff

Marion David Poff

Joined
Oct 8, 1998
Messages
5,403
Good Day,

I am looking for info on good winter gear, pants, parka w/hood, gloves.

Obviously water repellancy is important, and lightweight insulation, though a little weight is acceptable.

I am especially interested in Canadian cold weather gear, I have heard rumours that it is pretty darn good.

A crucial issue is mobility, I need something that won't mind an awful lot.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

>>--->Bill Siegle Custom Knives<---<<
-http://www.geocities.com/siegleknives-

Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!

Fire Page, metal match sources and index of information.

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
How cold are you looking to dress for, and what kind of activities? For a base layer, get the 'military' thickness polypro. Fantastic stuff, if you're working, that and a layer of wool will keep you warm down to about -40.

For extreme cold and/or sedentary stuff, find a good down parka and pair it with down overpants. Mukluks are cheap, light, and will keep your feet warmer than almost any other style of boot in severe cold. Bunny boots will also do the job, but will require better foot care. If it's wet and very cold, go for the bunny boots.


Stryver
 
Winter clothing is a science in itself with a broad variety in temperature,wind,humidity and snow conditions. Not to forget the constant change of these factors during the day.
Other key factors are activity and your body's ability to deal with the cold.
Of curse there is an ideal solution for every singel situation. The issue is to manage most conditions/situations with fewest compromises. Some of your key words were mobility and light weight.I'll have that in mind.
Use wool or wool based underwear.I often use a wool based underwear with 65% wool, 25 % polyester and 10% polyamid.It's comfortable and will keep you warm even when wet .That is the key issue.Likewise with head,hands and feet.Gloves,with fingers separated, are not as good as(what do you call it in the US)the thing with fingers together...

The outer layers are more wool or fleece depending on how cold/windy it is and of course, the activity. I prefer more thin layers before less and thicker.This way you can adjust the clothing if activity changes.Jacket/hood and pants are thin, windproof and water reppellent.Boots are more optional. I mostly use Thinsulate insulated boots with a thick sole.But sadly I'm still looking for the ultimate boots for dealing with all the different winter conditions.
If you are constantly changing from being indoors/outdoors the multiple layers solution might be "a pain in the......!"
Go for the down parka and or thicker layers. Likewise if the outdoors activity is close to zero.

Good luck!
Knut
 
Wool is obsolete. It won't insulate when wet and is difficult to clean, subject to moths.

Polar fleece in layers over polypro seems to be the current trend. This works wet or dry and can be laundered in the wash. (Keeping clothes clean improves insulation.)

The ARMY uses an acronym for cold weather gear (Two years in the Arctic as a medic. Spent Feb. north of the Arctic Circle in a @#%$#!! tent! In the dark at about -50F.)

The Army acronym is "C.O.L.D."

Clean -- clean gear insulates best.

Overheat -- If you overheat, the garment gets wet and you lose insulation. Less with polypro and polar fleece than wool, but still a loss. A good overshell will have lots of vent zips and Gortex (and now that the patent is expired the fine "clones" . . .) breathes.

Layers -- Keeps you from overheating. Also traps air between the clothes.

Dry -- Polar fleece works when wet. I proved this wearing a soaking wet polar fleece hat while kayaking. Wring out the water and it works still.

For winter snow shoe I wear poly pro underwear . . . in the "right" weight for what I'm going to encounter. Cover this with polar fleece pants and anorak and then a shell of "gor tex" pants and parka. I usually pack a polar fleece vest to have a layering option that's sleeveless and not as bulky. Polar fleec comes in lots of weights. I have three weights of pants/tops.

Pants have zips up the side for ventilation. You can wear the polar fleece pants with no shell or the shell with no fleece depending on conditions. Same with the top. DON'T remove the long johns!

80-90% heat loss is off the head, feet, hands. I have a poly pro full face mask, an ear band, and a couple weights of fleece and poly pro hats. I also have poly pro and fleece scarves . . . which are an versitile option for covering the face, sealing the neck. Goggles keep the eyes warm and out of the wind/sleet.

Several weights of gloves, from very light to large "arctic" mitts. Mittens are warmer, but gloves are more dexterious. You can wear gloves under mitts, and liners with gloves. Outer shell should be water resistant. Have extras because they always get wet.

MukLuk style boots are good for warmth, but they're hard to hike or snowshoe in unless they're well fitted. They're making "gor tex" boots these days. Heavy hiking socks (don't skimp on socks . . . get "dedicated" hiking socks, not "work socks." Poly pro sock liners wick moisture into the outer sock and prevent blisters. I have polar fleece socks which are heavy, and not great for hiking, but they're perfect after the hike in the tent or snow cave.

Two major concerns in really cold weather are constipation and dehydration. Takes TONS of water to hydrate your breath in sub-freezing temps. You may find it difficult and inconvenient to keep the ol' GI tract operating . . . This can be a huge problem. You need to dump on schedule and pay attention when it's not happening.

I snowshoe in blizzard conditions at altitude, camp in snow caves. This is a whole different ball-game than sitting on the beach in rain at +40F (which I also do).

Your clothing needs to work together and adapt very specifically to the conditions you encounter. Very cold weather is cold but dry. Wet weather can soak clothes and compromise insulation. Wind and air exposure can be nasty.

Head to the library and read up on cold weather camping/survival/injuries. There's a LOT of research on this subject.
 
I wouldn't say wool is "obsolete". I agree that polar-fleece is good stuff..., lightweight and warm..., but it's not the toughest material in the world, and it's vulnerable to fire (melting).

Try http://www.ibexwear.com/ , and you'll find some really nice wool clothing, from a firm in New England.

I've got their Atlas coat (thick, heavy Loden wool), which is cut large around the shoulders and upper arms, for easy movement.

I also have their Icefall "coat" (blend of nylon and wool), which is very lightweight, and thin but warm in a wide variety of temperatures. It won Backpacking magazine's Editor's Choice this past year.

Don't get me wrong..., probably my most used piece of clothing is a windproof polar-fleece vest. But if I was headed "out-back", I'd have my Ibex stuff with me.
 
You mean people have been lying to me all these years when they told me wool provides insulation, even when wet! In fact, that was a selling point for wool. More facts, please.

Bruce Woodbury
 
bruce- As I understand it, sheep's wool does insulate even after being wet. But, the point that other's are making is that polare fleece insulates better when wet, and is lighter for the same insulation dry. I am to understand that there are other animal hair products that are better than wool. But I think they are still beat by polar fleece.

MDP
 
Originally posted by DropPoint:
Wool is obsolete. It won't insulate when wet...
Click to expand...
I dont know where you got your information, but wool generates heat when wet. Most fleece insulates as well as wool, but only at the same weight. So, because wool clothing is usually more dense than fleece, wool is therefore warmer in thinner garments. As for wool, Hidden Wolf is the best IMHO. They went under for a while, but I think Marc now sells custom clothing at very reasonable prices for a very high quality product. For reviews of his producst go to the Leather Wall and do a search.(it's at the botton, after you select other forums)

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"Dream as if you'll live forever, Live as if you'll die today"
-- James Dean

-Jesse Foust
 
Marion, I have some experience with both older Canadian military environmental clothing, and the newer Improved Environmental Clothing System. The link Griffon posted has some good pics of the new IECS stuff, but if your looking at that you have to keep in mind a few things. The IECS is a relatively new system and not all of the items have been fielded yet. The CF is still in the process of transitioning units to the IECS, and not all units have recieved it yet. In the CF Combat clothing is replaced for free, so there is no AAFES PX selling the latest in issue kit. All of this means that IECS items will not be available on the surplus market for some time. For this reason I'll confine my comments to the old kit.
For the old kit I'll try and give you a brief run down. 1st layer is cotton long johns top and bottom. Second layer is regular 60/40 nylon/cotton blend combat pants and shirt with the option of a thick wool flannel shirt or a woolen sweater. The flannel shirt was reasonably popular but it's a very rough flannel and can chaff around the neck.
The outer layer consists of a parka with liner and wind pants. Both are made of a tightly woven polyester/nylon blend. The material is fairly windproof and has some water repellency. The parka feature a snap out liner which I believe uses polyester batting insulation. There is also a removable flannel lined hood that has a wire insert around the front. This insert can be bent to provide an face opening of whatever desired shape. The parka extens to a point just above one's knees and it is very bulky with the liner in.
There are three basic options in headwear- a olive drab wool tougue (watch cap), a white poly-knit balaclava, and a cap comforter for extreme cold. The cap comforter is a flannel hood with a nylon shell for wind resistance. The cap comforter also features a velcro adjustable face piece with a wire insert that can be bent to conform to your nose.
There are several types of handwear beyond regular combat gloves (similar to American D3A shells with liners. 1st, there are anti-contact gloves made of cotton with leather palms. These are designed simply to prevent contact of bare skin to metal while maintaining dexterity. 2nd, there are work mitts made of leather with thick woolen liners. 3rd, there are trigger-finger mitts made of leather with cotton gauntlet cuffs. Finally, there are 2 piece extreme cold weather mitts. The inside consists of a flannel liner while the shell features a leather hand piece with nylon guantlet cuffs.
Footwear consists of mukluks with nylon sides and removable felt liners and insoles.
As can be seen, many of the items are considerably out of date in terms of technology. Bear in mind that many of the items are geared towards extreme cold. That said, the system reflects the bulkiness of old technology and doesn't incorporate things like gore-tex. If movement is a concern and you desire real water repellancy, this system is probably not for you.
Whew, sorry for the long post. If you need any further info please email me.
 
Despite what may have been used in the past, remember this: "Cotton Kills".

In cold weather it's far too easy to get your undergarments damp....either by perspiration or by condensation. If cotton gets wet, it takes forever to dry, with minimal thermal insulating qualities. Therefore, wear a man-made wicking fiber such as polyethylene underwear (ie "Lifa" brand, etc). Many thin layers are preferred over thick layers. Even if your fleece gets wet, simply wring it out and it will provide almost the same insulation as when dry....not the same for cotton...

Also, when doing your activity, you should feel "comfortably cool, that's the rule". This will help you to monitor your layers so that you don't generate excess heat, that causes perspiration. If you sweat profusley like me, you will probably be rearranging your layers, vents, etc on a continuous basis.

When on extended outings in -30 Celcius temperatures, I wear only what I need to stay comfortable when being active and I carry everything else I need to stay warm if I have to stop and sit....

hopefully this is something for you to consider.
 
Thank you all, again.

This information helps considerably.

That comfortably cool rule makes sense. Often I am just right temp wise, then I am too hot, I sweat, and in a flash too cold, because the cotton next to my skin it wet.

Hugh, thanks for the rundown, it helps. I like long posts, they get the job done, and help me know where to look or what to ask next.

I think my first concern will be to find a good brand of poly unders.

MDP

 
Presently hailing from Florida, I won't get into the wool versus polar fleece argument.
biggrin.gif
I just want to note that as I recall Goretex recomended against wool because the natural oils (lanolin) stopped up the pores of the Goretex. That might be one of the reasons, in addition to the ones above, for the increase in its use in layering.

While on the subject, I would like to get a polar fleece jacket for winter, as it is about the heaviest coat I would ever need here in Miami. I have two questions. First, Lands End advertises that they have Polar Fleece 3, the thickest (and warmest) made. Are there other companies out there with similary thick Polar Fleece?
[This is my recollection from last year, so until I double check I might be slightly off on the name they call it. Since I never saw them on sale and being from Florida was not desperate, I never got one....ah ha something to add to my Christmas list, along with an accurate voting machine.]

Secondly, some were jackets lined with polar fleece, i.e. a built-in shell, if you will. I generally would prefer it without the covering, with the idea that on windy or wet days, I can add one. Does this make sense?

[This message has been edited by Donald (edited 11-14-2000).]
 
Marion, I'd have to say that you can't go wrong with US military polypro long johns. They're durable, they're warm, and they should be available to you at a reasonable price. Like many of my fellow soldiers I purchased US polypro long underwear out of my own pocket to replace my issue cotton long johns. There's newer stuff out, but the old polypro still performs favorably and you just can't beat it for the price.
 
Hugh- Thanks, though part of the problem is that I work inside, so I would almost have to change completely between.

Donald- I agree with that last part. Given a layering concept, you might want a shell with no fleece. Especially in Florida. Though I don't know what you are talking about a jacket for, my winter there was marked by pants. All these retirees are wearing down coats and shivering, and I finally decide I would be a little warmer in pants. I lived in Ft Myers for a year, strange state. Alligators in the public library pond, no fence. If they stop spraying insecticide, you can't live there, too many damn mozzies. I remember waking up one morning to this roaring sound, shot outside to find a big prop plane flying about 100 feet off the deck laying a fog of insecticide. Yum.

I actually lived within commute of Ft Myers, just outside Lehigh Acres. Imagine this, take a suburban land plan, curving boulevards, cul de sacs, all that stupid stuff. Now put the roads in, but no houses, at least very few. Our nearest neighbour was 3 miles away, but there were all these roads, with overgrown palmetto where houses should be.

Bi-Zarre as Gore the socialist would say.

------------------
Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

>>--->Bill Siegle Custom Knives<---<<
-http://www.geocities.com/siegleknives-

Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!

Fire Page, metal match sources and index of information.

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
Marion,

It does get cold here for a Floridian, just not what any northerner might consider cold. I even saw snow here in Miami......... of course I had to look really hard to see it.
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Since it is relatively mild, I thought a polar fleece jacket would be nice, and if windy/rainy/or going up north, I could layer it.

After looking at the www.landsend.com site I see I named it slightly wrong, they call it: "Let's clear up any confusion. Polartec® 300 is the warmest grade from Malden Mills. At 10.5 oz. per square yard..."

They also have a microfiber pile jacket which they claim is warm, I have no idea how it compares.

The Polartec 300 jacket now has supplex covered shoulders, added for backpacking and I suppose drizzle resistance. $52.50. A supplex jacket with Polartec 300 lining is $10 more. Tempting for wetter weather, but maybe to hot for Miami and for layering further North. I imagine the plain one would breath better, abeit somewhat less abrasion resistant if pushing through the bushes. ....No I don't work for Landsend, just happened to see this, and wondering how other shops compare. Of course if anyone can arrange a commission....I'll edit this.
wink.gif
 
Just a few thoughts:
Fleese being warm even when wet... like some have noted, nothing is really warm when wet, but fleese is very easy to get dry.
Gore-Tex... very good for wet conditions, breathes, but... it's not the best in windy conditions (my opinion). In really cold conditions you don't need to think about weter resistance/proof. When it's cold enough, it's not wet anymore. So you don't need Gore-Tex for it. You would be better of with good winter jacket than a light Gore-Tex outer layer with stuff inside. (No, I'm not going to spec the winter jacket.) Of course it's different if you are doing some activity when the problem is the heat from inside, then you need ventilation. But again I'm not sure if Gore-Tex's breathing capacilities are enough. And if you take a break from the activity, change to warmer jacket - otherwise you'll get cold very fast.

Hugo.
 
I live in the rockies, and while not as cold as many places, I am comfortable in:

Polypro (or similar) medium long underwear. Heavy weight when it is particularly cold out, or I expect my activity to be low.

A 200 weight fleece top.

15/16 oz wool Swedish military pants. Warm, tough, and tough. Did I mention tough? (I disagree that wool is obsolete, at least below the waist.)

GorTex shell jacket and pants. US military stuff works great. There are comporable brands out there.

Leather boots- 200 or 400 gram insulation mostly. If it is really cold I'll grab Sorells. Wicking socks and heavy hicking socks are a must. I prefer mostly wool blends.

Waterproof gloves. Several pairs. I prefer a polypro liner as well.

A fleece cap. Wool is fine, too. I really like the cap/balclava/scarf 200 weight polartec headgear. They are worth the money, IMO.

 
I know the stuff seems pricy, but I suggest that you might take a look at L.L. Bean's website and catalog. They have some great outdoor clothing, etc and the stuff doesn't wear out. I bought a few things there during a Maine vacation a few years back, one of which was a backpack for my daughter. About 2 years later, she broke a zipper on the pack and they replaced the entire pack. While I was waiting in line to do this return, I saw another guy come in to get an OLD pair of Bean's boots refurbished...they were in deplorable condition, and Bean's replaced them on the spot! Great customer service and a great value from an old US company. Something to think about!
 
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