Winter snow camping in the Sierra's in a few weeks. Tent or Hammock?

[supertac916]

I bring mules.

Nice! What kind of sleds are you using?

 

[22-rimfire]

We'll definitely learn a lot on this trip. Just hope it's not too miserable, which is why I'm trying to plan as best I can before we go.

Frankly if you are expecting to be miserable, I don't know why you would go in the first place. The idea is to have fun. I personally would choose the tent as it provides more of a shelter.

 

[mewolf1]

I designed and built the white one, the others are modified kids sleds. A new mold needs to be made to make more.

Nice! What kind of sleds are you using?

 

[supertac916]

I designed and built the white one, the others are modified kids sleds. A new mold needs to be made to make more.

Nice, we picked up some kids sleds from Target and will make some modifications. I like the one you made

 

[sasha]

If you have a back up just in case, where you can join a buddy in a tent. That's really is the most important thing.
If you really want to try the hanging from a tree I would say go for it. Figure out what you might need and then add one or two more things just to stay warm. At the very worst you would have stories to tell about how cold you were. The best part you would know what works and what doesn't. That's what you wanted to try this trip anyway. I say go and hang off a tree. That what I would have done. If you wanted to nice and comfy all warm and feeling good you can stay home and sleep in your bed.

 

[supertac916]

Frankly if you are expecting to be miserable, I don't know why you would go in the first place. The idea is to have fun. I personally would choose the tent as it provides more of a shelter.

I want to minimize the likelihood of being miserable, which is why I'm trying to decide what gear to bring to reduce the chances. I think there's always an element of a little misery when we hike, backpack, camp, etc. However, it's very little once you get the fresh air, play with knives, saws, axes, do some fishing, hang by the fire, and just get your mind off of things. The misery is usually self inflicted by not being properly prepared and I talk to people who've done winter camping and they say we're crazy. However, I always enjoy trying new things and adventures that I'm not familiar with or haven't done before. I'm thinking the tent does provide more shelter, but the rainfly and a nice reflective tarp over the hammock may work as well. I'm leaning on the expertise of the BF members and what I'm watching on Youtube..lol

 

[dynamicmoves]

I was planning to use my 20 degree bag, 25 degree bag liner, two wool blankets, and my thermorest in the hammock. I also bring a mylar emergency blanket and have a thick decent quality emergency SOLE tarp that has a reflective side. Unfortunately, I haven't tested my gear during the winter, but my 20 degree bag and thermorest works fine during the summer. Nights could get into the 30's and 40's in that area. We'll end up having a fire as well . This will be my first test. What do you use for insulation? I thought about getting an underquilt for the hammock, but wasn't sure what brand or rating I should get.

I've used a pad in my hammock, and an underquilt. I had an ENO underquilt that my family got me, not a huge fan, and I have the DD Hammocks one. I've stacked the underquilts, and I've used just the DD Hammocks.
All three of those have kept me warm at Coopers Rock and at Seneca (and elsewhere) in the spring and fall. The underquilt was far more comfortable, and easier to set and reset when I had to get up in the middle of the night.

 

[pinnah]

I'm not seeing the upside for hammocks in the winter. It's certainly not weight, particularly in a group setting.

I like a floorless tarp tent, bivy, and 2 sleeping pads (ridgerest + thermarest).

Below freezing, air is colder than snow. More wind heat loss with a hammock.

 

[neeman]

I used to snowshoe ten days at a time on the Long Trail or the Adirondacks

A tent

I could not imaging flapping in the wind in a hammock in sub zero weather
I want to be low and tight to the ground out of the wind

Stamp down the snow with snow shoes then with boots before you set the tent and you are already semi protected from wind
Good ground insulation
Blankets are heavy with little insulation
A rectangle sleeping bag as a wrap will give you more warmth than blankets and be lighter

Double and triple test your stove
Food and hot drinks will keep you warm
After that a fire

You seem to be carrying a huge amount of gear

 

[TheMadIndian]

I'm not seeing the upside for hammocks in the winter. It's certainly not weight, particularly in a group setting.

I like a floorless tarp tent, bivy, and 2 sleeping pads (ridgerest + thermarest).

Below freezing, air is colder than snow. More wind heat loss with a hammock.

The upside is comfort and I'm super toasty in my hammock and my -5f quilts are 62oz combined and I've been warm in them down to -15F with a 30F wind chill

 

[bore]

Snow is a good insulator. If you get a chance and the snows deep enough build a snow cave. Haven't done it myself other than as a kid. Been out a few nights in winter and my favourite is a leanto tarp with a nice fire in front. That's if firewood is no problem. Don't know about gov parks

 

[cbbr]

You really need a good underquilt for the hammock. The pad will help a lot, but you will compress the bags too much on the bottom for them to work in those temps.

 

[pinnah]

The upside is comfort and I'm super toasty in my hammock and my -5f quilts are 62oz combined and I've been warm in them down to -15F with a 30F wind chill

Hammock, tarp and sleep system under 4 lbs going down to -15f in high winds. Do tell me more!

 

[supertac916]

I've used a pad in my hammock, and an underquilt. I had an ENO underquilt that my family got me, not a huge fan, and I have the DD Hammocks one. I've stacked the underquilts, and I've used just the DD Hammocks.
All three of those have kept me warm at Coopers Rock and at Seneca (and elsewhere) in the spring and fall. The underquilt was far more comfortable, and easier to set and reset when I had to get up in the middle of the night.

Thanks, it looks like the best way to go is to either use my tent setup, unless I decide to drop the $200 on a good underquilt. I like the hammock setup for summer, but was wondering about using it for this trip.

 

[supertac916]

I used to snowshoe ten days at a time on the Long Trail or the Adirondacks

A tent

I could not imaging flapping in the wind in a hammock in sub zero weather
I want to be low and tight to the ground out of the wind

Stamp down the snow with snow shoes then with boots before you set the tent and you are already semi protected from wind
Good ground insulation
Blankets are heavy with little insulation
A rectangle sleeping bag as a wrap will give you more warmth than blankets and be lighter

Double and triple test your stove
Food and hot drinks will keep you warm
After that a fire

You seem to be carrying a huge amount of gear

It's definitely quite a bit of gear for just a few nights. Here's my gear list so far that I will pack in a sled and probably a 40 liter day pack.

- Beannie, Wool base layer, snow pants, Smartwool sweater, Smartwool socks, Down packable REI vest, Down Mountain Hardwear Jacket, NorthFace rain jacket, gloves, and 3 pairs of Merino wool hiking socks.

- 3 season tent, thermorest, 20 degree bag, Sierra Design Thermal bag liner, a Wool blanket or two. The other setup would be the same but I'd be using the hammock, but it sounds like the groups expert opinion is to only do this if I have a high quality underquilt. I also have a SOLE emergency tarp that is pretty thick and one side is reflective, so I was thinking about trying to use it to provide additional shelter and build a fire to reflect the heat towards my tent.

- Jetboil Mini-Mo, light stainless steel packable grate, stainless steel pot for cooking and melting snow. Also, a stainless steel water bottle so I can add hot water or soup for me to bring in my bag with me. Figured it may help add some warmth in the middle of the night.

- Various food items including some freeze dried, but since it's cold and I'm not worried about spoilage I'll probably pack in some real food. Also, hot chocolate, ramen, soups, and coffee to keep me warm. Obviously, trail snacks like jerky, mix, cheese, salami, and a few other things.

- Gransfors Bruks Small Forest axe, Silky Big Boy saw, a Survive! GSO 5.1, and a smaller folder or fixed blade.

- Fire starter kit, bic lighter, fire steel, vaseline infused cotton balls, and some dry burch bark. Maybe a few Wetfires as well just in case.

- Basic hygiene kit with toothbrush, paste, extra glasses.

- First Aid kit with various items

- Hand, feet, and body warmers that can be used if it gets really cold.

- 100' of paracord, fishing kit, toilet paper, compass, map, GPS, and a few other misc items.

- Snow shoes and packable snow shovel

I haven't had a chance to weigh everything, but I'm assuming it's probably around 40lbs or so. It's nice because I don't have to pack in too much water since snow will be abundant to melt. Do you think I need to cut or add anything?

Appreciate yours and everyone else's expertise on the subject. Thanks

 

[supertac916]

Snow is a good insulator. If you get a chance and the snows deep enough build a snow cave. Haven't done it myself other than as a kid. Been out a few nights in winter and my favourite is a leanto tarp with a nice fire in front. That's if firewood is no problem. Don't know about gov parks

Fortunately, the National Forest we're going to allows fires in designated and pre-existing fire rings, which are all around the lakes we're headed too. I wouldn't really want to camp in the snow if we couldn't have fires. I've seen those setups and they look pretty cool. I'm bringing a tarp with me and was thinking about playing around and building a shelter for fun.

 

[pinnah]

All comments are based on my current (and evolving) approach. YMMV.

- Beannie, Wool base layer, snow pants, Smartwool sweater, Smartwool socks, Down packable REI vest, Down Mountain Hardwear Jacket, NorthFace rain jacket, gloves, and 3 pairs of Merino wool hiking socks.

I carry two hats. The first is to hike in and I assume it will be wet from sweat when arriving at camp. The second is a balaclava for camp. Keeps the neck warm which is a massive heat dump. If your base layer has a built in hood, the balaclava isn't needed, but I prefer a the balaclava over hooded under layers.

I don't carry a heavy 3 layer Gtx jacket any more unless I'm spending protracted time above treeline. Actually, I try to avoid taking rain gear all together unless it is going to be above 20F during the day. Rain gear is too sweaty and I prefer dealing with snow using non-rain gear outer shells (unless there is a risk for wet snow above 20F). I prefer a non-rain jacket nylon shell for hiking, preferably with pit zips. A $10 shell from WalMart is sufficient.

For moderate cold like you are going into, I wear my shell jacket above my sweater and UNDER high loft parka while in camp. On the trail, the high loft parka goes over everything. Putting the shell closer to the body creates a quasi-VBL and better controls the micro-climate near your core.

I go with 2 pairs of sock (one on, one in the pack) and 2 wool gloves (with leather shell gloves) and 1 super thick wool mitt (with leather or Gtx shell mitts depending below or above treeline). Gloves for most hiking but mitts for camp and for hiking in brutal cold.

I wouldn't hike in the snow pants and would save them for camp use. Softshell or polyester or nylon wind pants (preferably with side zips for heat control) over fleece tights. I hike/ski hot.

- 3 season tent, thermorest, 20 degree bag, Sierra Design Thermal bag liner, a Wool blanket or two. The other setup would be the same but I'd be using the hammock, but it sounds like the groups expert opinion is to only do this if I have a high quality underquilt. I also have a SOLE emergency tarp that is pretty thick and one side is reflective, so I was thinking about trying to use it to provide additional shelter and build a fire to reflect the heat towards my tent.

I would swap the wool blanket(s) for a Z-rest or Ridgerest. I always carry 2 pads in the winter, particularly with down bags which compress more than sythnetic bags. I want additional R-value UNDER me. I carry a ThermaRest but they can be punctured (ski edges, crampons, knives, branches) and a flat ThermaRest sucks in the summer but it catastrophic in the winter.

I recommend experimenting in your back yard with your sleeping bag, liner, down jacket combination. Loft = warmth and one thing to remember is that the more that you put INSIDE of your outer bag, the more you are compressing the bag from the inside out, thus loosing loft and making the system colder. Older style over bags (like the military system) rely on oversized overbags to minimize loft compression. You may need to use your 20F bag like a quilt by unzipping it 1/2 way and only putting your feet and legs in the zippered portion of the bag, thus allowing the liner bag and outer bag to both fully loft. I'll sleep in my thin down or primaloft jackets but never sleep in my huge Primaloft belay jacket for this reason.

- Jetboil Mini-Mo, light stainless steel packable grate, stainless steel pot for cooking and melting snow. Also, a stainless steel water bottle so I can add hot water or soup for me to bring in my bag with me. Figured it may help add some warmth in the middle of the night.

I carry a small circle of thin plywood for my stove to insulate it. You may need to sleep with your cartridge. Experiment outside in your back yard. Leave your stove outside overnight and test it in the morning.

- Gransfors Bruks Small Forest axe, Silky Big Boy saw, a Survive! GSO 5.1, and a smaller folder or fixed blade.

The places I go can't sustain the amount of timber harvest that an axe implies. For camping, I generally just rely on my stove but will also carry an Emberlit as a back up or for camp fires but this is easily fed with a small folding saw and 4"-5" knife.
Hot Chocolate by Pinnah, on Flickr

I also see axes as a real threat in winter. One of the symptoms of hypothermia is clumsiness. Add fatigue and you have a recipe for mistakes. YMMV.

 

[supertac916]

All comments are based on my current (and evolving) approach. YMMV.



I carry two hats. The first is to hike in and I assume it will be wet from sweat when arriving at camp. The second is a balaclava for camp. Keeps the neck warm which is a massive heat dump. If your base layer has a built in hood, the balaclava isn't needed, but I prefer a the balaclava over hooded under layers.

I don't carry a heavy 3 layer Gtx jacket any more unless I'm spending protracted time above treeline. Actually, I try to avoid taking rain gear all together unless it is going to be above 20F during the day. Rain gear is too sweaty and I prefer dealing with snow using non-rain gear outer shells (unless there is a risk for wet snow above 20F). I prefer a non-rain jacket nylon shell for hiking, preferably with pit zips. A $10 shell from WalMart is sufficient.

For moderate cold like you are going into, I wear my shell jacket above my sweater and UNDER high loft parka while in camp. On the trail, the high loft parka goes over everything. Putting the shell closer to the body creates a quasi-VBL and better controls the micro-climate near your core.

I go with 2 pairs of sock (one on, one in the pack) and 2 wool gloves (with leather shell gloves) and 1 super thick wool mitt (with leather or Gtx shell mitts depending below or above treeline). Gloves for most hiking but mitts for camp and for hiking in brutal cold.

I wouldn't hike in the snow pants and would save them for camp use. Softshell or polyester or nylon wind pants (preferably with side zips for heat control) over fleece tights. I hike/ski hot.




I would swap the wool blanket(s) for a Z-rest or Ridgerest. I always carry 2 pads in the winter, particularly with down bags which compress more than sythnetic bags. I want additional R-value UNDER me. I carry a ThermaRest but they can be punctured (ski edges, crampons, knives, branches) and a flat ThermaRest sucks in the summer but it catastrophic in the winter.

I recommend experimenting in your back yard with your sleeping bag, liner, down jacket combination. Loft = warmth and one thing to remember is that the more that you put INSIDE of your outer bag, the more you are compressing the bag from the inside out, thus loosing loft and making the system colder. Older style over bags (like the military system) rely on oversized overbags to minimize loft compression. You may need to use your 20F bag like a quilt by unzipping it 1/2 way and only putting your feet and legs in the zippered portion of the bag, thus allowing the liner bag and outer bag to both fully loft. I'll sleep in my thin down or primaloft jackets but never sleep in my huge Primaloft belay jacket for this reason.



I carry a small circle of thin plywood for my stove to insulate it. You may need to sleep with your cartridge. Experiment outside in your back yard. Leave your stove outside overnight and test it in the morning.



The places I go can't sustain the amount of timber harvest that an axe implies. For camping, I generally just rely on my stove but will also carry an Emberlit as a back up or for camp fires but this is easily fed with a small folding saw and 4"-5" knife.
Hot Chocolate by Pinnah, on Flickr

I also see axes as a real threat in winter. One of the symptoms of hypothermia is clumsiness. Add fatigue and you have a recipe for mistakes. YMMV.

Thanks Pinnah, I'll adjust my gear accordingly. I do have a SOLO stove that I bought to use during the summers, but there's been fire restrictions throughout California the last few years due to the drought. I'll pack that one with me instead, since the other guys will be bringing their Jetboils.

 

[Alberta Ed]

Try your sleeping set up in the back yard before you go whether it is hammock or tent. Better to find out you need more insulation when you are able to bail inside.

Excellent advice. I've used two down sleeping bags (a synthetic mummy bag rated to 0 F. inside a regular four-pound down bag) on a Thermorest in a tent at -40 in the Yukon, wearing polar fleece long sleeve top and long johns and was perfectly comfortable. Ground insulation is essential. My buddy had a cot and an alleged polar temperature sleeping bag and nearly froze -- no insulation under his bag. Wind can be a significant factor so I'd vote for the tent. Inside heating is not essential if you have the right clothes. Wear layers so you can take off clothing so you don't sweat on the trek in -- wet clothing can be a killer. Go all synthetic.

 

[Grease]

Biggest thing if you go the hammock route is to wrap insulation AROUND the hammock, not just around yourself inside it. You crush it flat if it's between you and the hammock. An extra long sleeping bag that zips at both ends can have the hammock fed through it to act like a cocoon if you don't have a proper underquilt.

Take a look at Shugemery on Youtube - he does hammock camping in all weather, including -40 on a frozen lake in Minnesota. He's got lots of how-to and tips & tricks videos for it.