wire inlay

H

hawkwind

Joined
Oct 26, 2004
Messages
298
Hi folks. I m planing on to make wire inlay on pattern welded blade I m attempting o forge now.

Does any of you make these? What preferable tools you have and what should be hardinnes of steel to make cutting the growes possible?

Does anyone have a pictorial? Could someone help me?

I want to make a herringbone inlay.
 
Not sure how you would do it on the blade, I'd probably try a scrap piece first and braze the silver in and then heat treat the piece to see if the silver got to hot. I have a book on 'hawks and for metal inlays they show making an under cut for the metal and then hammering the inlay into the head making the inlay flow into the undercut.
 
Get a book on metal engraving,or better on gun engraving.They have sections on inlay.It is quite difficult and takes lots of skill and practice.A power engraver handpiece is not a must,but is a big help.
BTW, why don't you lay up the pattern in the metal while pattern welding it.Then it will go all the way through the blade.Using a bright contrast stripe (15N20 or pure nickel)to the base color in a simple herring bone twist should make a great herringbone pattern damascus.
 
Hm. I could do that but that should be replica of historic knife (means no ferules, only rear fitting) + silver inlay. I think herringbone was most common on things like spear sockets, axes, but never see one on knife.

Thanks for advice anyway.
 
Hawkwind, could you give me a link to a piece that may display this pattern you speak of? I am unfamiliar with that. Thank you!! :)
 
Thanks, Hawkwind. Unfortunately, I can't blow it up sufficiently to make out any detail before it pixelates.

Wire inlay involves first cutting the channel, then undercutting it slightly to hold the wire in, of course. Typically, when blades are to be engraved, it is done beforehand. Even then it would need hard gravers made from carbides. Scale becomes a problem during heat treat. I would also suspect that the upper edges of the channel would become susceptible to oxidation because of the thinness. Thus, this project would best be accomplished if one could reduce scaling by working with salt pots.

After HT, the channels would have to be cleaned out with a carbide graver. Somehow this makes me shudder at the task. After that, all you have to do is tap wire into the channel and sand it flat and it is pretty permanent if the channel are done properly, as evidenced by that ferrule.

I doubt I've helped you much, here, sadly. However, the best help I can offer would be to direct you to post the foto and your original post at the Fine Embellishment forum at KnifeNetworks http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=46

Worldclass engravers attend that site and would be able to give you the best available information and advice.

Good luck. Interesting project.
 
Thank you very much. Thats helpful. I m also preparing experimental making of bullat now. We have build the furnace and I have everything neccesary, so I ll see how this comes out, but I dont plan to engrave bulat :)
 
You're welcome. I am glad it helped. The people at the forum I cited could give you professional-quality advice, too! I am an amatuer and perpetual student of this technique. My successful wire inlay experience is limited to wood at this point.

I can't help but notice your use of the term bulat. Are you from Russia or eastern Europe?
 
Hawkwind, I must say thank you! Your thread just caused me to go to the engraving bench and attempt inlaying silver wire into brass for the first time ever! I used a pointed graver to mark the line. Then I used a flat graver to chase the line deep. I then used a knife graver to undercut the line. I worked large the first attempt and the channel was about 1.5mm. Then I hammered .030" (~1.2mm) fine silver into the channel, then sanded to smooth. It worked! I can't get the silver out without the assist of the power graver.

Thank you for the inspiration!
 
fitzo said:
Thanks, Hawkwind. Unfortunately, I can't blow it up sufficiently to make out any detail before it pixelates.

Wire inlay involves first cutting the channel, then undercutting it slightly to hold the wire in, of course. Typically, when blades are to be engraved, it is done beforehand. Even then it would need hard gravers made from carbides. Scale becomes a problem during heat treat. I would also suspect that the upper edges of the channel would become susceptible to oxidation because of the thinness. Thus, this project would best be accomplished if one could reduce scaling by working with salt pots.

After HT, the channels would have to be cleaned out with a carbide graver. Somehow this makes me shudder at the task. After that, all you have to do is tap wire into the channel and sand it flat and it is pretty permanent if the channel are done properly, as evidenced by that ferrule.

I doubt I've helped you much, here, sadly. However, the best help I can offer would be to direct you to post the foto and your original post at the Fine Embellishment forum at KnifeNetworks http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=46

Worldclass engravers attend that site and would be able to give you the best available information and advice.

Good luck. Interesting project.
Click to expand...


You can do the cutting after heat treating. You need to use special gravers. I can't imagine that you would cut before heat treat, then fill after heat treat. You might cut before heat treating if you were inlaying iron (some old swords have marks like this.) Ask over on the knifenetworks for the real answer. :)
 
gator68 said:
You can do the cutting after heat treating. You need to use special gravers. I can't imagine that you would cut before heat treat, then fill after heat treat. You might cut before heat treating if you were inlaying iron (some old swords have marks like this.) Ask over on the knifenetworks for the real answer. :)
Click to expand...

Gator, why is it that you "can't imagine" you'd cut before HT? A substantial amount of the deep engraving you see on blades is done before HT, is it not?

I will go to KnifeNetworks myself and pose the question so we can get the "real answer", as opposed to my "fake" answer.

Here's the thread link so we can watch the replies:
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?p=190512
 
I would suspect that the cutting should be able to be done before heat treat and the graven lines covered somehow to avoid oxidation and scale, maybe by using a thin layer of fine clay that will seal oxygen away from the surface but thin enough to allow heat through without acting as a thermal barrier?
 
Fitzo, I m from czech republic. I tryed something myself and I was able to make groves with handsaw. This is only usable for crosguards and pommels of swords, but noody will notice how its done. On historic weapons you only need to make straight groves usually.
 
Dave, sorry about turning you into a human latte machine! ;) Hope I didn't cause you to mess up yer goin-to-work clothes!

Well, it seems like I wasn't a total dummy after all. My best advice, of course, matched Gator's....go ask the pros.

It could be cut afterwards if necessary, but not if that can be avoided in hi RC steels. Ray Cover stated he does pearlite areas in a differential quench post HT, however.

The "grooviest" piece of info in those responses at KnifeNetwork was that the preferred method is to go ahead and inlay the wire prior to HT, choosing the metal for it's melting point so it won't be melted out. Since the MP of pure silver is slightly over 1750*F (954*C), one can still HT a plain high carbon blade and if done properly the silver will remain intact I'd think. The engravers used gold alloys as examples. 24K gold, with a MP of 1947F (1064C) would even work in some stainlesses. Now that's pretty cool.

Hawkwind, thanks for starting this thread! :)
 
Hey Fitzo, I didn't call you an idiot. Your advice seemed contrary to what I'd been told by a professional engraver -- he did mostly guns. Live and learn.

Anyway, sounds like you're on the right track. I'll have to try to stretch my imagination more. :) Post some pictures when you get some good gold lines inlayed!
 
I am curious as to where you guys are finding the hand gravers.....


This has been very interesting, enlightening, thought provoking, educational, fun, and almost became a spectator sport.

Somebody start another like this.....I wanna sell tickets....


Doc
 
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