Wite-out, why?

D

DevinT

Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
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I yell at the TV everytime I see a smith pour the stuff in the can. Just leave the can and grind the edge and the bevel leaving the spine area with some mild steel.

I was the one who developed powder damascus with some help from Ed Schempp. There were other smiths that discovered powder on their own but the materials and techniques used today can be traced back to me.

Heat transfer is very slow because powder is not as dense as solid material and requires longer soak times to get good welds. More reduction after the welding is also needed to get near 100% welds. Stripping the can too soon is not a good idea, there are lots of billets that are not solid enough to forge on their own after removing the can.

There is a lot of misinformation about damascus steel out there, I think this is one of them.

Hoss
 
I always wonder when I see this - would lining the inside of the can with stainless HT foil help it come off (if your goal was to make nice-looking damascus and not winning a TV competition)
 
Yes, I yell the same thing, "Leave the can there." It would also make the blade less likely to break in the smashing tests.
FIF isn't a beauty contest. All you need to make is a tough knife with a hardenable edge.

Years back, I helped some folks who were testing different ideas on easier release of the canister. We tried stainless foil inserts and stainless canisters. The consensus was that no matter what you used it would get welded to the billet to some degree. The simple answer was to grind/saw it away as needed.
 
Thank you Hoss for starting this thread. I'm NOT a damascus maker, but have wondered many times what the deal was on removing the can. Just leave it on, draw the billet out (don't fold the billet), forge, grind being sure to have the center exposed for the cutting edge. Save LOTS of time and a stronger blade with the softer metal cladding on the outside.

Thank all of ya'll for your comments - I've learned LOTS of all of ya'll.
 
DevinT said:
I yell at the TV everytime I see a smith pour the stuff in the can. Just leave the can and grind the edge and the bevel leaving the spine area with some mild steel.

I was the one who developed powder damascus with some help from Ed Schempp. There were other smiths that discovered powder on their own but the materials and techniques used today can be traced back to me.

Heat transfer is very slow because powder is not as dense as solid material and requires longer soak times to get good welds. More reduction after the welding is also needed to get near 100% welds. Stripping the can too soon is not a good idea, there are lots of billets that are not solid enough to forge on their own after removing the can.

There is a lot of misinformation about damascus steel out there, I think this is one of them.

Hoss
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A lot of wisdom in that post Hoss!!!

Funniest thing I've seen is the guy who started over because he forgot to clean the grease off ball bearings before putting them in the can. Grease in the can is a non issue, as is rust. :D
 
skillgannon said:
Jay Nielson has a YouTube video about it. I imagine that contestants watch it and it sticks in their heads as "the" way to do it
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Well, from my perspective, it's more so that they generally choose smiths who have never, or almost never done any canister damascus. And they don't necessarily realize that by drawing the can out, the jacket becomes thin enough that removing it completely will almost happen without even thinking about it. Personally I was also worried given the condition of the inside of the tube, the higher heat required for low carbon forge welding, that I wouldn't get a good weld of can to core.

If there was a dynafile in the shop I would have cleaned the interior of the can to bare metal and done exactly what Devin describes. Like Don said, grease or some rust or surface scale maybe doesn't matter, but I didn't want to test that theory on the clock.
 
I agree that leaving the can on would be the way to go.... except, didn't some of the challenges require that the pattern be visible?

That said, it would still be better to leave the can on until you initially draw out the billet. Hogging 1/16" off the surface is a hell of a lot easier than trying to chisel the can off a partially consolidated mess.
 
I have forged a bit, and suck at it, but i know 100% for a fact if i tried to get the can off i would end up with 3rd degree burns and be carted out in shame.
 
Devin! Thanks for explaining that the Wite out is a waste.——————————I’m a stock removal maker for some 22 plus years and have been to more that a few meetings of Cal Knife Makers assoc and watched forging demos at the meetings that are held at a different members shop each month where they have made canister Damascus and have never once heard of or seen any Wite out used. ———————————————————Also saw a forger load a old piece of Tail pipe with motorcycle chain with the rust and grease and powdered steel and forge a Harley chain billet and forged & ground a cool dagger out of it with no mention of Wite Out———————————————————There are a few things I yell about when watching FIF but I’ll leave those for other threads!
 
If you were going to mosaic it, or ferry flip it, or some sort of further processing it would make sense to remove the can from the whole billet

But as said, I think they just want to show that they watched J's video - or they have not tried it and all they know is what they watched.
 
Natlek said:
Liquid paper ....................obviously not work ? Why then they use it ?
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It's not that it doesn't work, or help, the titanium dioxide at a certain level of reduction does make the can easier to peel off. It's that it works for something you don't have to do, and if your forging down far enough, wouldn't want to do because of the canister thickness.

It's like taking your oil pan off to change your oil. Does it work? Yes. But why are you doing it when you could just drain it?
 
JD Smith was the first to use it that I know of and I think he used it to keep mokume from sticking to the plates. I think he also painted it on the outside of the stack to prevent oxidation. From there it went to canister damascus.

Hoss
 
john april said:
i am curious as to who discovered the white out trick, and how they stumbled upon it ?
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Jewelry and spray welding have used Yellow Ochre for a long time to prevent stuff being soldered or oxidized where it wasn't wanted.

the titanium dioxide in Wite-Out, is similar to that but available off the shelf in Walmart

I believe that the spray welding process is why the powered metals exist.


Spray welding
 
Lieblad said:
Thats one reason, But metal injection moulding is by far more common industrial process.
This "canister damascus" is a variation of.
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Ah yes, MIM parts, the bane of all armchair gunners existence. I just read where Kershaw made a couple MIM knives. I will have to read more about this.
 
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