Wood Handles, Gaurds, & Tempering Question

Archer Here · Dec 6, 2008

I sent this question out in another thread, but thought I better add it as a new thread. Need some advice on wood handles & gaurds. This was related to the bowie knife I just completed:

In the process of making my wood handled knife, I tempered it, then attached/glued the wood handle. This made it very difficult to shape and sand the wood and finish without marring the guards front and back on the inside. I would make it and put it on before hand and not finish it, and then temper it, but Im afraid the heat would do something to the wood, like release the glue, etc.

And another question: Is it normal after tempering that your steel turns a sort of blond color, because it makes it hard to re-sand it to touch it up later the silver comes back out. But I do like the blond/wheat color.
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David Loukides · Dec 6, 2008

Hi Chris,
Fit and finish can certainly take some time to do it right. In general applications I leave the finish till after assembly. All the points of contact of the parts are fitted up tight leaving only a small amount of hand work after assembly.
I remove the color you saw on the blade after tempering and be for putting a handle on by regrinding and or hand sanding the blade again.
Fit and finish will take lot's of practice. I always try to improve it with each set of knives I make.

SDS · Dec 6, 2008

I'm probably not the best to answer this but I'll tell you how I do it. I heat treat my blades, temper them back and then attach any guards and handle materials. On the part of the guard facing the blade I make sure that it is completely finished before attaching it since this area is difficult to work after it is assembled.

I don't worry about the bottom, or handle side, of the guard until after I have attached the handle. I usually use a small 3/4" or 1" diameter wheel to grind with to make the transition from the handle to the guard. It makes a smooth curve and then I clean it up by hand. Some materials don't work well with this technique (stag, oosic) but wood works well this way for me.

If I have to attach a handle that I cannot grind in this manner then it is a matter of fitting everything up and finishing it out before gluing it all up.

I'll leave the tempering color question to someone more qualified but my blades to have some color to them after tempering. I don't think it would hurt anything to leave it that way if you like it but I also don't think it would be a very durable finish.

Hope this helps and I'm sure others can offer more advice as well.

SDS

A C Richards · Dec 6, 2008

Chris,

Dave ans SDS summed it up pretty well. So far as the color after tempering, it is actually an oxide that builds up in the heating process. The color is a rough indicator of the temperature you attained. It can be left on the blade steel if you like and will not harm it in any way, but, it is a very thin layer and will scratch easily so if you do not want to see as many of the scratches remove it by finishing after the complete HT process.

Archer Here · Dec 6, 2008

Hmm. So tell me this, when I am shaping 2 pieces of wood to go on one handle, which is sandwiching the steel of the handle (I don’t know the name of this, but I’m sure there’s a name for it), how do you keep it together when you’re trying to evenly shape it. For instance, if I take one and shape it, and then I take the other one and shape it, and then I put it together, one might be different than the other and they won’t line up. I’m doing this kind of like I do my bow handles. I use a belt sander and I roll the wood around and up and down and back and forth and so on, until I get an even nice shape all the way around. What I’m basically saying is how do I hold the two together without gluing them, so I can shape it evenly. Does that make any sense? cause I’m having a hard time describing what my problem is.

bjalongi · Dec 6, 2008

Hi Chris,

Do a search on youtube. There are many videos about almost every aspect of knife making. I believe you are talking about attaching and shaping scales. You can also check the newbie sticky at the top of this forum for a plethora of information about bladesmithing. Here's a direct link to it.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=452465

*deleted paragraph*

Good luck, and please let me know if I can ever help with anything. I don't know much, but probably could help direct you to someone who does, or at least good website.

Take care,
BJ

A C Richards · Dec 6, 2008

You are talking about scales or slab handles. If you are putting on a guard or bolsters then what I do is finish the front of the piece as Dave mentioned. I also make sure the mating surfaces to the handle material are finished out so there will be no gaps in the handle. I then attach the guard/bolster in place making sure the front and back are even from side to side. I then attach the handle making sure the fits are as close a possible. I allow the handle to dry then shape the sides of the bolster/guard and handle all at once. This is where the side to side even grinding comes into account. The tang that is exposed will be finished at this time also grinding until the tang is just scuffed with the grinder and hand finished. If you are leaving the oxide coating this will be difficult unless you are using screws to hold the handle and guard/bolster in place. You can make a take-down version of any style knife. It just take a little practice.

fitzo · Dec 6, 2008

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Archer Here · Dec 7, 2008

bjalongi said:
Hi Chris,

Do a search on youtube. There are many videos about almost every aspect of knife making. I believe you are talking about attaching and shaping scales. You can also check the newbie sticky at the top of this forum for a plethora of information about bladesmithing. Here's a direct link to it.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=452465

Good luck, and please let me know if I can ever help with anything. I don't know much, but probably could help direct you to someone who does, or at least good website.

Take care,
BJ

My question was more about shaping handles and seeing if there was an easier way to do them. I’m doing them fine, but wanted to know if there is an easier way to do this, but I think in knife making there is no easy way.

bjalongi · Dec 7, 2008

That's the problem with forums and e-mail, it's tough to get one's message across exactly how they would say it in person. I'm sure your knives are tough as nails.

I will edit my post and remove that paragraph. But you'll need to do so in yours as well. I surely don't want to hurt your business. I probably should have PM'd you instead.

Rusty McDonald · Dec 7, 2008

OK I think there are a few questions right?
The temper Color on the blade after treatment, depends on the temp you temper it at. here is a chart
I dont think It's a good Idea to temper your blades with a handle on the blade. You can finish the handle take it off and then do the temper.
Shaping the handles on the knife or off, is kind of up to you some do some don't.

SDS · Dec 7, 2008

Also, if your doing a slab handle, or using handle scales, without a bolster you can drill all of your holes in both scales and then check them for fit on your tang. After doing this and making sure you have everything flat take the scales off and pin them together without the blade between them. With the scales held this way you can finish the front portion (part that touches up to the ricasso) and everything will match up on the knife when it is completed.

This particular area of the handle is difficult to finish out well after assembly and, for me anyway, is much easier to complete prior to gluing everything up.

On a little bit of an unrelated note, when are we going to get to see some of your bows?? That is something I have an interest in but am afraid to try. I'm afraid I'd get the bug there like I have with knifemaking and I can't afford the time to do two hobbies.

SDS

v-6 · Dec 7, 2008

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=573498
vern

Archer Here · Dec 7, 2008

SDS said:
Also, if your doing a slab handle, or using handle scales, without a bolster you can drill all of your holes in both scales and then check them for fit on your tang. After doing this and making sure you have everything flat take the scales off and pin them together without the blade between them. With the scales held this way you can finish the front portion (part that touches up to the ricasso) and everything will match up on the knife when it is completed.

This particular area of the handle is difficult to finish out well after assembly and, for me anyway, is much easier to complete prior to gluing everything up.

On a little bit of an unrelated note, when are we going to get to see some of your bows?? That is something I have an interest in but am afraid to try. I'm afraid I'd get the bug there like I have with knifemaking and I can't afford the time to do two hobbies.

SDS

I would love to toot a little about my bows, but being a knife forum, I didn’t want to overstep my boundaries… .but since you asked

Just click on the link in my signature and it will take you to all the different styles of bows I make, with lots of pictures. Enjoy! If anything, you’ll probably like looking at the pictures. I build bows with styles unlike any other, and am proud of them.

SDS · Dec 7, 2008

I sent you a pm also. I think you could "toot" a little over in the gadget and gear forum without anyone complaining. There seems to be a few traditional archers over in the W&S forums too.

You had asked about the guard and how to shape the handle below it. I'm adding a couple of pictures that will hopefully show one way of doing it. I use thicker guard material and grind away what I don't want.

Keep posting pictures.
SDS