Recommendation? Wood stabilizing under pressure

I have done black walnut here with cactus juice, but it takes a loooong time under vacuum. A couple weeks or more. So I usually send walnut it K&G.
 
cool - does somebody know answer (topic of this discussion) on my question: "what pressure is optimal"?
 
Optimal ? 1500 psi/100 bar ?:) Optimal is that what you have ............I mean more is better but you will need expensive equipment .There was are vacuum pump and other vacuum pump , there was
container and other container....Same with compressor for air .........Money talk :D
 
okey , if anybody here has no experience with pressure, it is ok, I will ask somebody else.thanks anyway
 
I don t think that there is definitive answer to your question PavelKa . Higher pressure is better .If you have equipment to rich 10 atm/bars , use it ! If you can reach 20 atm/bars use that . Same with vacuum ..... that is all I can say :thumbsup:
 
PavelKa said:
okey , if anybody here has no experience with pressure, it is ok, I will ask somebody else.thanks anyway
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I answered your question already. There is no magic number. The more pressure you can apply, the better in terms of soak time reduction. The rate of fluid uptake will vary widely by species and wood condition. You will have to test based on your set up.
 
Those that do it use 1000 to 2000PSI. That takes special chambers ( a painting pressure pot won't work) and special compressing systems ( a home compressor won't work).

I know a couple of folks who spent thousands building the right equipment, and decided to have the pros do it after they say the results. Call or email mark at Burl Source for his opinion … he did his own for a while. Ben, at Greenberg Woods, has a good knowledge of the subject, and has his done professionally.

I have all sorts of vacuum and pressure equipment. I have a diving compressor available that can create the needed pressure. I have done my own stabilizing. For many years, I have sent my wood to the pros. For a long while to Mike at WSSI, and now to Ken at K&G.

The resin you use is important. Yes, cactus juice will harden the wood to some degree. But if you want the best you can get, it takes very expensive special resins that are sold in 5 gallon and larger quantity. It runs around $150 a gallon last I heard. Shelf life is not long.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Those that do it use 1000 to 2000PSI. That takes special chambers ( a painting pressure pot won't work) and special compressing systems ( a home compressor won't work).

I know a couple of folks who spent thousands building the right equipment, and decided to have the pros do it after they say the results. Call or email mark at Burl Source for his opinion … he did his own for a while. Ben, at Greenberg Woods, has a good knowledge of the subject, and has his done professionally.

I have all sorts of vacuum and pressure equipment. I have a diving compressor available that can create the needed pressure. I have done my own stabilizing. For many years, I have sent my wood to the pros. For a long while to Mike at WSSI, and now to Ken at K&G.

The resin you use is important. Yes, cactus juice will harden the wood to some degree. But if you want the best you can get, it takes very expensive special resins that are sold in 5 gallon and larger quantity. It runs around $150 a gallon last I heard. Shelf life is not long.
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Ive about got my degree in Chemistry and worked for a good amount of time in a polymer science lab, I wrote my exit thesis on wood adhesives and stabilization. I work with a lot of wood. And Brad at K&G does ALL my stabilizing. And I see no reason to change that any time soon.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Those that do it use 1000 to 2000PSI. That takes special chambers ( a painting pressure pot won't work) and special compressing systems ( a home compressor won't work).

I know a couple of folks who spent thousands building the right equipment, and decided to have the pros do it after they say the results. Call or email mark at Burl Source for his opinion … he did his own for a while. Ben, at Greenberg Woods, has a good knowledge of the subject, and has his done professionally.

I have all sorts of vacuum and pressure equipment. I have a diving compressor available that can create the needed pressure. I have done my own stabilizing. For many years, I have sent my wood to the pros. For a long while to Mike at WSSI, and now to Ken at K&G.

The resin you use is important. Yes, cactus juice will harden the wood to some degree. But if you want the best you can get, it takes very expensive special resins that are sold in 5 gallon and larger quantity. It runs around $150 a gallon last I heard. Shelf life is not long.
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I seriously doubt that what K&G or WSSI use as a stabilizing fluid is materially different than cactus juice. The difference between results is in process. Both K&G and Cactus juice smell the same, are equally hard and work the same, with the same weight gain (in maple anyway). That said, if you're not sure, send it out. It is a bigger learning curve than most people think, and the investment in equipment to do it RIGHT is not insignificant. If I had walnut burl, or a large quantity of material I wanted done in a reasonably fast turnaround (I can do maybe 2 blocks every 48 hours). I'd send it to K&G. I don't have the time to deal with that.
 
Kevin McGovern said:
I seriously doubt that what K&G or WSSI use as a stabilizing fluid is materially different than cactus juice. The difference between results is in process. Both K&G and Cactus juice smelled the same
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Kevin, the stuff K&G uses might be similar, but is different to cactus juice. It definitely does not smell the same.
 
It was mentioned earlier that the resin is MMA. MMA is not heat curing. Stabilizing resins are Phenol-formaldehyde Resins
 
Kevin McGovern said:
You're right. My mistake. Should have said similar. To me anyway, they both have a sweet smell I guess?
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WSSI and K&G smell just like fiber glass resin & Bondo. Cactus juice has a unique smell not similar to anything I've ever used. I've used a bunch of both in the past two years.
 
Doesn’t K&G use two different types of stabilizer depending on material? When I looked into having wood stabilized by them I seem to recall that the wood would need to be marked what it was so they knew which stabilizer to use. It sounded like the one for harder/oily woods was more “special”
 
lanternnate said:
Doesn’t K&G use two different types of stabilizer depending on material? When I looked into having wood stabilized by them I seem to recall that the wood would need to be marked what it was so they knew which stabilizer to use. It sounded like the one for harder/oily woods was more “special”
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That would explain it. As I've only had maple from them.
 
Kevin McGovern said:
It was mentioned earlier that the resin is MMA. MMA is not heat curing. Stabilizing resins are Phenol-formaldehyde Resins
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Not exact.

Phenol Formaldehyde is the resin used in micarta, in high grade plywood and some other industrial applications. It is a phenolic resin, meaning ts chemical structure is based on a phenol ring. To cure it, the compound must be mixed with fromaldhyde, have its PH raised to about 13 and then heated. Being a phenolic resin, it is highly resistant to solvents.

Stabilizing resin in different, it is Mono-methyl-methacrylate. Its a monomer much more similar to acrylic. It can be suspended in a solvent solution and drawn into the wood. Once in the wood the application of heat causes the monomers to bind together and create the larger polymers that give stabilzied wood its strength.
 
Greenberg Woods said:
Not exact.

Phenol Formaldehyde is the resin used in micarta, in high grade plywood and some other industrial applications. It is a phenolic resin, meaning ts chemical structure is based on a phenol ring. To cure it, the compound must be mixed with fromaldhyde, have its PH raised to about 13 and then heated. Being a phenolic resin, it is highly resistant to solvents.

Stabilizing resin in different, it is Mono-methyl-methacrylate. Its a monomer much more similar to acrylic. It can be suspended in a solvent solution and drawn into the wood. Once in the wood the application of heat causes the monomers to bind together and create the larger polymers that give stabilzied wood its strength.
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Ah. I thought the only resin type that fit the bill for 212° F cure was phenol formaldehyde
 
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