Wootz steel

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Wootz steel was used in chisels and then those were used to carve Jade in olden times. Sets of those chisels were passed down for generations as it is told they didn't wear out and could cut and trim any steel or stone!
 
One of the theories that I have heard is that wootz was dumb luck as far as the chemistry goes and a LOT of skill, hard work and failure on the part of the guys who figured out how to make the steel in crucibles and the smiths who had to forge it into blades. One theory postulates that one reason that it may have fallen out of use is that the ore source which may have been in Sri Lanka dried up. Another reason may have been that people were figuring out ways to make decent steel that were a hell of a lot easier. The truth of the matter was that the stuff was probably as rare and expensive as tamahagane or the "pure" pattern welded steel used in the best medieval European swords.
 
wootz like banding structure is intended to be avoided in modern day metallurgy. but if you really want the visiable banding pattern on the surface, a lot of uhc steel will do the work. i had tried copyed the medieval wootz composition of 1.5%c with either nb/V. got a 40kg ingot through VIR. forged and hot rolled it into 10mm sheets. followed by cutting grove and drill holes on it. then hammer the sheet flat with a hand hammer(big power hammer should work.the reason i got it hand forged because i was told small hand hammer would get better looking pattern), grind it to blade. etch and polish. and the blade turned out to have a good looking pattern. i post the picture of the knife in this thread if you would like to check.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/906177-wootz-bowie
i was supprised the forging and rolling is quiet easy unlike most artical discribed it as a intensive labor work.

also, poorly forged and heat treated D2 sometimes showing a strong wootz like banding structure. this happens more frequently if the smelting method is poor, such as longer time during the solifacation result big proeutectic cementite net inside the steel.
 
Hammerfall, perhaps there's a language problem here .The wootz is a cast material and therefore starts out as a dendritic structure , NOT a banded one [varying layers ]. Dendrite is from the Greek meaning 'tree like'. The Vanadium is critical here and the original wootz disappeared because they ran out of the ore containing V. Forging wootz distorts the dendritic structure but that remains as vanadium carbide doesn 't completely dissolve .
 
thanks mete. i have been in greece for 2 years, but unfortunatly i did not learn the lanauage haha. from my experience there are 2 way of getting the pattern on the blade surface.

1: forge and roll the ingots with normal temperature used for high carbon steel such as 1095. drill and cutting grove then flat the surface again with hammer. following by cycling the sheet from 850~600c,10 times will be enough to see the pattern clearly.

2: the more traditional way, forge the ingots with relatively lower temperature. this way you do not need thermal cycling later to make the pattern clearer. but low temperature forge is kind of a tiring bussiness.

personally i perfer the first one. and it is very possible producting wootz sheet for knifemakers in a industry way. but truth to be told, i see no evidence of wootz being a supperior blade steel compare to modern day material. art and beauty wise yes. i have handled plenty of antique wootz swords too, indian, persian, ottoman. unfortunatly non of them are close to the performance was told in legend.
 
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Modern wootz , sometimes called techno-wootz, is made by holding the steel at certain temperatures and cycling it up and down many times. I believe that is the method the Russian makers still use for Bulat. The starter melt is part of the process, but many claim any steel with high allow and 1% carbon can attain the pattern.

I asked Oleg Krymlin to see if he can get Ivan Kirpichev to post a reply on how he does it. Ivan's wootz is really nice.

Please note that techno-wootz is a registered trade mark of Angel Sword.
 
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I don't think there is language problem in the description by hammerfall, dendritic structure is specially refers to a type of solidification defect, each of us can read about this topic in a textbook. however, any blade made of steel is necessarily going through the hot-working process, and during thess process, carbide tend to form and grown up priority along with the deformation area, so in the macro shows it seems to be banding structure.

as for "ran out of the ore", I think these are completely lies to deceive the world, vanadium is not very rare at present times, there is not difference between "ancient vanadium" and "modern vanadium", wootz's components can completely copy, in the mean time , although we do not know what metallurgy process the ancients made, people can try to expermence and imitate, reproduction of wootz should not be impossible.
 
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running out of ore is a history myth. as i know, small amount of vanadium persents in many kind of iron mines all over the world. i think the reason for wootz to be lost in history is more like the side effect of industry revolution in europ. new metallurgy technology producting way better quality steel with much less of time and cost. british and indian themselvs figured that and simply replaced wootz with the better modern steel.
 
Yushu,
I think the problem lies in that they didn't know it was vanadium. vanadium was only identified in the 1800's. Before then it existed, but no one knew what it was, or where to find it. Some ancient ore mix from some well guarded source contained the vanadium with other elements in a combination that made wootz. This ore deposit was either abandoned, or depleted and the process was discontinued. At the same time modern steel process became capable of mass production low cost hyper-eutectic steel in high quality and large production runs. That made a small production and high cost steel like wootz unnecessary.
 
Yushu,
I think the problem lies in that they didn't know it was vanadium. vanadium was only identified in the 1800's. Before then it existed, but no one knew what it was, or where to find it. Some ancient ore mix from some well guarded source contained the vanadium with other elements in a combination that made wootz. This ore deposit was either abandoned, or depleted and the process was discontinued. At the same time modern steel process became capable of mass production low cost hyper-eutectic steel in high quality and large production runs. That made a small production and high cost steel like wootz unnecessary.

yes, you are right, the ancients didn't know it was vanadium, but there they are.
Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong: Material not out, but powder just:D
物质不灭,不过粉末罢了——毛主席语录
Since no change, people can analysis of the composition and reproduce it.
 
Samarai Stu… (Samurai didn’t crucible steal, they smelted it, but Wootz crucible steel is however interesting)…

A few Wootz recipes for you… Standard of measurement follows.

Female iron is a very common "Eastern" concept. Male iron is hard while female iron is soft. Furnaces also have a sex, hot or cool.
  • 1 ratl = 12 uqiya ounces= 144 dirhams =.75lbs =.3kg 1 mann= 2 ratl.
Al-Tarussi ~

Take one rotl of iron ( Narmahan ) and half a rotl of male-iron ( Shabarqan ). Collect the mixture in a pot and put on it five dirhems of magnesia and a handful of acidic pomegranate bark. Let the fire blow on it until the alloy melts, then make an egg of it. Take it out and make a sword.

If it comes from the heads of old nails... 17 dirhems of myrobalan from kabul and the same quantity of belleric, should be cast upon it. The iron should be placed in a pot, which should be cleaned well with water and salt. The above mentioned preparation should be mixed with it, and the whole placed in a crucible , which should be dusted with a dirhem and a half of crushed magnesia (maganese dioxide) . The foundry fire should then be blown upon this until it melts and is collected as a cake or egg. This is over several days . Then alllow this to cool and make a sword from it.

1 part male magnesia (manganese dioxide ) , 1 of sunbad ( coral ) of borax. Break up the whole then set it aside. Take a mann of soft iron filings in the pure state, place them in a crucible , and pour over them two uqiya of the aforesaid mixture. Blow on the fire to cause it to melt and make it soft enough to take up a round shape in the crucible. Then take 1 part of syrian rue ( peganum hamala), 1 of gall nuts, 1 of acorns, 1 of aloes, together with a quantity of cantharides equal to all these. Make the whole into a powder, and of this mixture cast 2 uqiya on to the mann ( 1 maund = 2 ratl ) of iron, blow on the fire until what appears to be a rainbow rises out of the crucible. When it has reached this state, allow it to cool, then forge a sword.

Cultivated myrobalan, 20 dirhem: magnesia, 7 dirhem: scammony, 5 dirhem. Reduce all to a powder. Cast this preparation onto 3 ratl of shaburqan, and blow the fire to make it melt in a crucible with a lid pierced with a hole so that one can see into it, and examine the iron until it is seen and felt with an iron rod to melt. Then remove it from the furnace, allow the crucible to cool with it, and make of it what you will. And strike a 20 ratl iron bar: with Allah's help it will cut it..

Now Iron manufacturing is oldest in the Middle East, older than Asia or Japan, so you’re going to have to look up terminologies yourself to convert mann to ounce perhaps… But even the first metallurgical works of Japanese katana were Wootz based… Hot enough to let metals move and bond, cool enough so not to alloy them as one.

According to Al-Tarussi, the process was fired for days until sufficient marbling of material was made, then drawn & shaped. In his treatises there is no mention of a low temperature post heat treatment, so we must assume that the within the method of ingot creation this is 60% complete. During the draw from egg shaped ingot to fully shaped sword, the temperatures are only enough to work harden the steel….

Now for the Samurai in you, Wootz is made in pot Tamahagne is made in an oven (carbon added to the core metal over days). The two methods are separated by 600-1000 years… Once a tamahagne process is completed the oven in demolished and what remains is like a meteorite of high carbon steel, at its core softer metals. It is broken apart and the two soft/hard are sorted by color.

The harder steel is then folded anywhere from 6-12 times, the softer 3-6… Why, because the softer steel will become the swords center, to absorb and flex, the harder steel is flattened out, folded into a V and the softer metal placed inside ->

The two are then forge welded together (this is where Sultans and Shoguns differ), the heat of forge welding tamahagne’s together is pretty hot, just below melting point, Wootz is already bonded so is work hardened to shape… This is why Samurai Swords get quenched, then clay treated in heat differential (less clay on the cutting edge, more clay over mid/spine)…

Very different processes, delivering basically the same result…

Now if you what, what I think you want (best of both worlds, a Sultans crucible steel, forged in Samurai process, (Something akin to Adamantium). This is how you make it…

Let’s make our core… Carbon 40% - Manganese 50% - Phosphorus 4% - Sulfur 5%.. add within this 1% powdered alabaster.
The core should be 1” wide by 3/8” thick, tapering to 1/8”, 26” long and folded 9 times.

Now let’s make our cutting edge… Carbon 13% Chromium 13% Vanadium 15% Tungsten 21% Molybdenum 15% Cobalt 20% Sulfur 2%. Special .8% powdered bark of a pomegranate tree and .2% diamond dust, folded 13 times… Proceeding each fold a handful “bouquet” of pomegranate, buchcovet, miscanthud, bellflower, arrowroot, maiden flower, wild carnations and boneset was dashed against the hot work head to toe.

The heat process of each before folding should be fired by several High/Low temperatures allowing metals to pour out their impurities and allow lower heated metals to move forming slight separations/veining or Carbon nanotubes with separation of cementite and pearlite. This is the lost method of Wootz.

Our cutting edge should then be drawn out 1/8” to 1/16” and 2 5/8” wide, 28” long and folded 13 times. Then drawn to 5.5”s wide, folded to about 1.5” opening at 40 degrees or so, and the core placed inside. Orange hot not Red hot, no swirls or bubbles 🫧 too hot and the high carbon folds disappear. Hammer or Numo-Press the two together.

Blade geometry, basically an oblong pentagon, think .50 BMG… Taper base to tip (horizontaly) as well tang to tip. During quench thicknesses translate to curvature and in use a thinner tip thicker base translates to cutting prowess… In ancient Japan blades were rated by how many bodies they could cut through. Tameshigiri was the practice (dead bodies were staked on brick and board and the maker took an overhead downward swing through the mid sections). 5 bodies is the record BTW. Get it as close as possible to finished geometry with a grinder (using flap wheels 80-120).

Quenching is done blade face down in a room temp pool of water enriched with calcium and magnesium until milky white… The low carbon base/core metal will cool first leading the once forged welded high carbon claded bar to tighten against its length, it’s spine shrinking while higher carbon steels cool last… If done right, the spine nearest the tang turns sharply, fading to tip.

Now we clay temper… Coat the blade in traditional red clay or my favorite mixture of 1 part red clay, 2 parts refractory (aluminum silicate)… Coat the entire blade in about 3mm. Then use a popsicle stick to remove excess from the cutting edge (don’t press down to hard, this going to be your hamon - heat treat line), the most important thing is to leave 1mm of clay on the blade.

2nd most important thing, try to leave a small raised dune (between the two 4-5mm line). This is Masamune’s lost “Field of Stars” method. It will make a shadow line where the pearlite will pop out on final polish… let the clay dry overnight.

3… Fire up your furnace to 400f. Run the blade through for 20 minutes turning, cool to 300, run the blade through another 15 turning…

Next we clean our blade of clay, define our cutting edge and polish, reveling our Metallurgical work…

There’s a couple ways to go here…

Traditionally your base stone is level +5 Nakayama +5 meaning over 5k grit), Slurry stones Botan, Korma, Mejiro, Tenjou (up to 3k)… Then finger stones, or Uchimogori… 3k-5000 grit (super delicate stone flakes, backed with rice paper to hand burnish). This can take up to 3 months.

Mordern method: Felt wheel, white rouge, red rouge, switch to Muslin wheel and use green jewelers rouge. Final Finish blue, you’re done in hours… (My knives and razors I polish in this method, my 1st Kana, I polished traditionally).



 
Al-Tarussi was kinda the Masamune of the Middle East… We’re talking 600-1000 years before Goro Masamune 1264-1453…. Bronze Age, 300-1000 BC, 794 to 1185 we get the Wootz/Tomahagne split. The Chinese took from Wootz what they needed (Ghengis Kahn commanded legions 1200, occupied most of China, Russia and Japan with a spring steel variant of Wootz), someone in this post said Wootz was soft-hard. It wasn’t/isn’t, Wootz hardness is about as hard as 1086… 55-60hrc. By todays standard razors are sharper 60-66hrc.

Katana’s traditional still are above 60 into the 70,’s HRC. The highest rated Tokubetsu Juyo Token - (Extraordinarily Important Work) usually come in at +-73… Wootz is a lost method, but not better than differential Tomahagne swords, and modern day razors are still less hard than Samurai swords of the time…

If like me, you were looking for Excalibur or a lost Muramasa (Masamune’s only student to surpass him), my above forged katana is kinda it… If you don’t have access to a foundry, just an anvil and a furnace… I suggest you purchase a 1045 billet, and CPM 110V… Its most likely with the two you can fire/fold and pound out something like a Masamune Miramasa in the process.

Wootz, “look at all that veining, rivers and lakes of dissimilar metals… But it’s not Tomahagne… Even todays Damascus steels 1095 15n20 (5bar above Wootz). Ladder patterned, Bubble wrap, Twist, W’s, Basket Weave, Accordian, Loaf, Persian ribbon, all reach HRC 65…. Harder than most coveted Wootz sword…

I thought in my previous post I kinda explained that (someone was like Wootz is like adamantium! If you feel like cutting yourself shaving, go for it lol!!!

The worlds Strongest (bend before it breaks), Sharpest (will hold an edge long before it chips) is Crucible Rex 121… If we currently have anything close to Adamantium that’s kinda it… But I think you’re going for pretty…

REX 121 isn’t pretty, it’s grayish, (basically if you put all my metallurgical efforts into one crucible, melt my katana down, fire it to boiling point, you get REX 121), but it won’t perform the same. There’s to be said about cladding metals, harder surface over softer core, that we still use today in Nuclear Processing… It just can’t be beat!

Anyways my Post Script kinda finishes there as a NACE Nuclear Metallurgist.

 
But Stu, I hope you got all this and try to make your own katana… Wether Wootz or Tamahagne, or both (like I did)… Only road-signs I’ll put out there, are >>> Do your own research… We know a lot, but we don’t know everything… I’ve a PhD and am still learning… Someone says Adamantium, don’t buy it, refer to rule 1! Lol! If you want pretty, learn Damascus methods… If you want pretty without rework and are cool with lower HRC’s experiment with Wootz… Warning, heat treat processes of 1083 Wootz will never be as hard as 1095 or it’s alloys. So don’t get your hopes up.

 
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“The sword we make make will your yours one day, a sword must bend before it will will break, it must be tempered… Tell me which is most important Fire or ice…(Fire) Are you sure?”…

Great scene, but I still like the original better… Between the time the oceans drank Atlantis, and the rise of the sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars, and to this came Conan the Summarian…

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky, but Crom is your god. Crom lives in the earth. (I’m thinking Chromoly Steel), Once giants lived on the earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos...they fooled Crom and took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered and the earth shook. Fire and wind struck down the giants and threw their bodies in the water. But in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel...

...and left it on the battlefield.

And we who found it...are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men.”
 
But that was the brilliance of Milius… He wrote screenplays, but the scenes themselves were more important than dialect… Conan didn’t even speak until 24 minutes in! (We have 30 min shows with commercials that take up that), finally he speaks, “Crush your enemies, see them driven driven before you and the lamentation of their women” 5 minutes later in a tomb he says “Crom!?”

Chromium’s cool, I mean in the early late 60’s we chromed everything lol… Bumpers, Grills, if we couldn’t paint it we chromed it lol…

“When I die have to go before him, he will ask me what is the riddle of steal, and if I do not know it he will laugh me out of Valhalla.” That always got me, (Viking descendant Rhône Alps, yep)… Now I don’t know if Crom’s my god… Like in the newest Mad Max (guy chrome spray chromes his mouth and exclaims “Witness”!) yeah I’m kinda not there yet LMAO!

I’m kinda a long road guy…. Books of metallurgy, NBTHK, samuraisword.com (Darci passed away, so it’s now an unsecured site) but basically Sato Kan’ichi’s 7 volume encyclopedia of swords compiled from ‘66-72… And Darci updated it yearly with new finds… It’s so sad that site is down. The 7 volume set is like 5k ($5,415.00). and it wasn’t/hasn’t been updated since ‘74!

If making Katana’s is your thing I’d kinda start there.
 
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