Wootz

kamkazmoto

kamkazmoto

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Sep 14, 2002
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I did a search about Wootz and ended up with more questions than answers. It seems to be a mystery material possesed of supernatural reputation. My questions are: What is it? How does it differ from pattern welded damascus? Which makers use it? How does it differ functionally (edge holding, sharpness, toughness etc.) from conventional knifemaking steels. Thanks

gary
 
Try a search with Al Pendray's name in it with Wootz. You can read about it here too.

http://www.bladegallery.com/information/info_wootzdamascus.asp


Also, In Knives the premier cutlery magazine April 1995 there is an article about Wootz and Al and a shop tour. In the article among other things it mentions a article by Wallace M. Yater published in "The Anvil's Ring" that deals with Damascus steel. Yater and Pendray met and Yater told Al he should get together with John Verhoveven a metalurgical engineer. After they did get together it wasn't long before the steel was rediscovered.

Pendray points out in the article that Damascus steel is really pattern-welded steels of high and low carbon content forming layers manipulated during forging. This layering is what creates the patterns of Damascus steel and it can be manipulated by the maker to some extent to form shapes or patterns.

Wootz steel is an aggregate of ferrite, pearlite and cementite crystallized into a 'Wootz cake'. This cake is melted in a very long drawn out process of labor til it is finally forged into a blade. The pattern in Wootz steel is the result of the iron crystallizing as it cools and usually consists of wavy lines resulting from the cementite particles clustering parrallel to the blade surface.

Wootz steel is significant historically because there was nothing to compare to it available in the west until around 1740 when crucible steel from England was invented.
 
There's nothing mysterious about wootz. It's just a byproduct of alchemy and pixie dust :)
 
This is how I see it:

Modern laminated Damascus steel combines layers of soft and hard steel stacked together, forge welded, folded and forge welded again, after doing this several times a blade is obtained with mixed but not blended steels of different hardness, when the blade is sharpened the soft steel wears away easily while the hard steel stays and you get a very hard sharp long lasting edge, the hard steel by itself would make a brittle blade but the soft steel sort of holds all together to make it tough.

Wootz steel obtains the same effect but does not start with different steels, there are "impurities" (certain non iron or carbon elements) in the steel to begin with or introduced during the forging process that create a blade with a non-homogeneous content of carbon and other elements which also make for a sharp hard edge without brittleness.

In both cases the irregularities in the steel composition make for the patterns visible on the surface of the blade.
 
STR
Thanks for the info and link but it is still magic to me. I redid the search and came up with some great links especially this one in the HI forum that gives a lot of other links with information about wootz.

HJK
Can't thank you enough for the info. I didn't know pendray even made a folder. where is the drooling smiley when you need it?

Don Luis
Thanks for the input, I don't know enough to agree or disagree but it seems like there has to be more too it than that or else there would be a lot more bladesmiths using it.

Can anyone comment on the performance of either modern or ancient wootz or is it just to valuable to play with?
 
kamkazmoto said:
Can anyone comment on the performance of either modern or ancient wootz or is it just to valuable to play with?
Click to expand...
There was a study done by Verhoven where they used a CATRA machine to test the edge retention of wootz against 52100 and AEB-L. It performed well, but was still behind 52100, and AEB-L did the best in the test.
 
Somewhere I read once that the only steel capable of slicing a silk scarf in half when it was thrown into the air was an original Damascus (wootz) blade. I think it is just myth though. I think that in it's time it must have been impressive to behold. Especially when it hit an opponents sword and snapped it right in half making it useless. Pretty much like most of the Damascus out there today though I doubt it could compete with the steels we have available to us. Don't take that wrong. I know there are a couple of guys making some incredible blades that exceed ATS34 and other premium steels in edge holding and strength. But the majority of what I have personally bought an used has been...in a word...JUNK!

I bought a CASE folder with Damascus and it did not impress me at all. I had one other custom made and I could get it to shave hairs but can't say it kept the edge that good at all. Neither of these were cheap knives and since then I've had a couple of others that simply didn't do a thing for me. I've always been a whittler. If the knife I use can't whittle soft pine, cedar, or sasafras it isn't worth keeping, because it will never cut it when I move up to something like hickory or osage orange. Someone show me a damascus blade that I can use to whittle with and I'll seriously look to buy it. Otherwise it is a just something pretty to look at from my experience.
 
STR said:
I bought a CASE folder with Damascus and it did not impress me at all. I had one other custom made and I could get it to shave hairs but can't say it kept the edge that good at all. Neither of these were cheap knives and since then I've had a couple of others that simply didn't do a thing for me. I've always been a whittler. If the knife I use can't whittle soft pine, cedar, or sasafras it isn't worth keeping, because it will never cut it when I move up to something like hickory or osage orange. Someone show me a damascus blade that I can use to whittle with and I'll seriously look to buy it. Otherwise it is a just something pretty to look at from my experience.
Click to expand...
Weren't we talking about wootz?
 
STR said:
Somewhere I read once that the only steel capable of slicing a silk scarf in half when it was thrown into the air was an original Damascus (wootz) blade.
Click to expand...


You hear the same thing about Japanese swords. "Only tthe katana..." :yawn:
 
Vassili

I have seen some of the Russian art knives before but never knew that they were so into recreating wootz steel. Thanks for the links, it's too bad that the last link didn't take the testing beyond the Journeyman ABS standards and into comparisons with other steels. I would guess that they would have had a hard time controlling so many variables.
 
Larrin said:
There was a study done by Verhoven where they used a CATRA machine to test the edge retention of wootz against 52100 and AEB-L. It performed well, but was still behind 52100, and AEB-L did the best in the test.
Click to expand...
kamkazmoto: Since you seem to have missed the first time I said this, I've quoted it :)
 
You're right Larrin. My bad.

I just got on a soap box for a few.
 
STR said:
You're right Larrin. My bad.

I just got on a soap box for a few.
Click to expand...
That's ok. I just hope kamkazmoto will actually read the information I have on the performance of wootz. :)
 
52-100 - best push cutting steel, no questions about this. Hovewer Bulat has microsaw on it's edge due to hard carbides. Let me quote Achim:

"... this heterogenous steel is made for draw cutting anyway. If you want a perfect blade for push cutting and it has to be made from steel, nothing beats a plain carbon steel..."

What is AEB-L?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
AEB-L is a Swedish stainless steel. I would love to get a look at those test results. It would be interesting to see what the parameters were.
 
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