Wootz

I'm not sure if they're readily available. My father got them straight from Verhoven. And about the push cut and the thing about plain carbon steel, AEB-L is actually a very fine grained steel, possibly even finer grain than the CPM steels. It actually acts very much like 52100. But, from reading these CATRA tests, it may be even better. Oh wait, I'm getting off subject, sorry. :)
 
Mike Blue actully reffers to different CATRA results:
"...Didn't someone in England, aka the fellows who developed the CATRAL testing sled, publish the data they collected on the various knife steels? If Sal is lurking maybe he could comment in very general non proprietary terms about his experience with testing too.

What I had heard was that wootz in the unhardened state out-cut pretty much everything put to the test. 52100 was the next best cutter although fully hardened. Now that was several years ago before wunderstahls began hitting the market..."

And one more link:
http://home.att.net/~moltenmuse/index.htm

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. Keith, did you manage to get one of wootz blades?
 
nozh2002 said:
P.S. Keith, did you manage to get one of wootz blades?
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Not yet. I am hoping to get a bowie made with a wootz blade. I have emailed Achim, but he hasn't gotten back to me yet. I would love to have Ilia Kulikov make me one, but I am still worried about the possibility of the knife being confiscated in Russia.

Sorry for hijacking this thread.
 
Larrin said:
kamkazmoto: Since you seem to have missed the first time I said this, I've quoted it :)
Click to expand...

Howdy Larrin,

Larrin, thanks again for bringing your post to my attention and I appologize if you think that your post was ignored, that certainly wasn't my intention.

Actually did read your post but I got to thinking that the number of variables involved in testing one steel against another could be overwhelming. After all if you tested a 52100 blade that I forged against one made by Ed Fowler the results would be drastically different. How then could you compare two different steels where one steel (the wootz) is a relatively unknown commodity. There must be different qualities of wootz, the same as there are different qualities of damascus. The parameters for 52100 are relatively well known, I am not familiar with AEB-L but I will assume that the most effective way to heat treat that steel has also been quantified. What about the wootz? Assuming (I hate that word) the edge geometry is the same, how do you determine that you have a good example of the material and if you are heat treating the steel in such a way as to get the best results? How do we even know the best edge geometry for this steel? Could it be that those that have gone before us knew more about this steel than we do?

Anyway, thanks for everyone's participation and please help me to learn more.


.
 
The tests were done with the help of Al Pendray himself, so it was probably done with the highest quality of wootz damascus, and I believe that it listed the Rockwell of the 52100 and AEB-L, and they seemed to be at a good working hardness, so I don't think that the heat-treating and things affected the testing that much, but the tests were done with a couple different edge geometries (not at the same time, they were separate tests). I believe that the variables were kept to the minimum. CATRA is not always the best form of testing (I'm still not convinced about using silica to wear down the blades, we don't cut rocks), but is very accurate with repeatable results. You asked for information on performance. I provided it, you don't have to argue about whether or not it is a viable test. :) I doubt any other official testing has been done, and anything else is going to be more opinion than fact. I'm just giving you what I have.
 
There is no martensite in Wootz, it is extreemely tough, the lessons to be learned from wootz can be of great benefit to the modern knife maker if he has the time and desire to explore the potential contrubution it has to offer.
 
Larin -

I'm sorry if my post sounded confrontational, truly it was not ment to be that way. Thank you for the additional information, your subsequent post clarified all my concerns. Thanks again
 
katana wernt forged from wootz... :rolleyes:

Daniel Watson may peep in this thread...I dunno how often he browses since I havnt seen him on AxeForum lately but his been selling damascus blades for a while now. lots of controversy goes with his territory but look aside from the hype and you'll get what your after :).
 
STR said:
Somewhere I read once that the only steel capable of slicing a silk scarf in half when it was thrown into the air was an original Damascus (wootz) blade. I think it is just myth though.
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Well, if you could slice a silk scarf in the air, it would be because of proper edge geometry and sharpening, not because of any mystical steel.
 
actually different steels under a microscope even with the same edge geometry will have different properties...Kevin Cashen has been doing a fair bit of research into this and has the equipment needed to even photograph and observe steel at a very minute size (to see the grain structure of the steel).

Wootz does have a micro egde serration that could possibly react to a silk scarf in such a way that it parts the scarf in two. I havnt noticed much talk of metallurgy and the egde on different steels at a microscopic level here at blade forums but edge geometry is only one minute factor in what degree a blade will cut.
 
Generally those steels with small carbides will take a polished edge easier than those steels with large carbides; however, all you have to do is not take a fine grained steel to a polished edge to get a micro-serration, but you are going to have a hard time getting a steel with large carbides to a polished edge. I prefer fine grained steels, but both have their strengths and purposes for use.
 
My browser is loading at a snail's pace these days, so I haven't gotten to check out all the links provided yet. If someone has already linked to this site, my apologies, otherwise it contains a wealth of information on the subject.

http://home.att.net/~moltenmuse/index.htm

Dang. Now I can't even create a link... Just copy & paste it.

Edit:
Someone else already posted the link. And the hardness numbers I remembered were wrong- They are given in the article on "The Key Role of Impurities..." They tested several antique swords, and the pearlite matrix ranged from 23-37 Rc, while the ferrite matrix was between 5! and 8! on the Rc scale. They may have been good swords for their time, but I can't imagine steel that soft being able to stand the blows without bending.
 
nozh2002 said:
What is AEB-L
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AEB-L = Swedish rust resistant steel from Uddeholm

material composition: C-0,65 Si-0,4 MN-0,6 P-0,02 S-0,015 CR-12,8

kee :)
 
akee said:
AEB-L = Swedish rust resistant steel from Uddeholm

material composition: C-0,65 Si-0,4 MN-0,6 P-0,02 S-0,015 CR-12,8

kee :)
Click to expand...
It is very close to this steels:

Sandvic 13C26 C=0.65 Mn=0.65 Si=0.4 Cr=13.0
AUS-6 C=0.55-0.65 Cr=13-14.5 Mn=1 Ni=0.49 P=0.04 Si=1 S=0.03
440A C=0.65-0.75 Cr=16-18 Mn=1.0 Mo=0.75 P=0.04 Si=1 S=0.03

I probably should buy one of this Kershaw Storm from 13C26 - it is almost AEB-L and
without P and S.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Sandvik 13C26 is a copy of AEB-L, but I wouldn't compare it to the other two steels, simply because AEB-L falls perfectly along the carbon saturation line, which means that it uses 100% of its carbon, unlike AUS-6 and 440A.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Roselli offers wootz blades, their own manufacture.
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At least they did. I'm not sure if you can get that anymore. You could of course contact them and ask whether it's available. Their web-site is at http://www.roselli.fi/. But wootz is not displayed anymore. I think it was quite expensive to do it (wootz puukkos were more expensive than their damascus puukkos - and thus I didn't buy one then...) and was perhaps discontinued due to lack of demand. From the wootz they developed the Roselli's UHC steel (1.5% carbon).

Hugo
(Been a while since I've been here...)
 
Keith, when did you email me? I didn't get anything.

Interesting thread, didn't have the time to read everything but what i saw was very interesting. Don't have time to wrte some more righ now but will try to be back soon.

Just one short remark to what Ed said. In general he is right, but it is possible to selectively harden wootz blades without loosing the structure and the designs. That makes for an edge which contains martensite and combines the good push cut abilities of a plain carbon steel blade with the outstanding draw cut abilities and flexibility of a non-hardened wootz blade. There are a number of old persian sword blades that are hardened, too.

Achim
 
Thanks Achim: I believe that we are talkng about the exact same progression in the art of the bladesmith. Maintaining the pattern so much saught after prevented full hardening and soak time to achieve martensite. The differentailly hardened blades came later than the first wootz, I believe, then a few started thinking and we see the first low temp forged, multiple quench, differentially hardened blades.
 
You're right, Ed. Personally i differentially hardened all my wootz blades from the first time on. In the beginning i got somewhat high in temperature and lost the structure in the hardened parts, but after a time i got the hang of it and now i can do the hardening without loosing the technically interesting structures. As my wootz melts are pretty high in carbon at about 1.8 to 1.9 % C, there's enough iron carbides left in the matrix to make it harden very well. The results are pleasing, cut very well and are very tough.

In general i don't like stainless steels for blades too much but in this case i had to try. My idea was to cross breed the excellent flexibility and toughness of the heterogenous wootz structure with the extreme hardness of the chromium carbides and some resistance against rust. I made a "normal" wootz melt and added 15 % chromium to the mix. I calculated the carbon content to get about 1.7 % C in the end product. Chromium has a much bigger affection to carbon than iron so what i got in the final ingot was mostly chromium carbides and a bit of the usual vanadium carbides. I had to adjust the diffusion heating temperature as well as the temperature for heat cycling and forging because the chromium carbides need some more heat to go into solution. When i started forging i immediately thought my oh my, what did i do. This stuff didn't want to move at all. The power hammer wanted to hop around and the other guys in the forge came looking if i was forging cold tool steel. :D
Well, finally even this steel moved and i could forge it to a bar and later to a blade. I tried to harden it differentially but if it worked, i don't know. Very different from normal wootz which shows an incredible "hamon", it doesn't show any transition line. The blade shows a very fine wootz design and cuts incredibly well. It holds a razor edge for a long time and even after loosing it by wearing away the matrix, it stays cutting with the "sawtooth" edge of the carbides. With the test blade, 4 1/2 inches long, i tried cutting sisal rope. Didn't have a handle at the time. After 300 cuts i stopped because i got blisters on my hands. After that i tried a brass rod test 5 times on each side without any problems. The edge bowed up and returned to straight. In the end i started cutting small scrolls/chips from iron nails without any damage on the edge. I could not bring myself to the point to try a 90° test with this first blade, but others will follow this winter and i'll do such a test. I'll keep you updated about the results. So far, i am pretty pleased. Oh, stain resistance. I left the blade wet with water from my grinding/cooling tank on the work bench with an open 240 grit for a night and a day and it just showed some surface oxydation which could be wiped away with a finger. I am not sure if it was the blade or oxidized grinding dust from the tub. More to follow.

Next week i will start the oven again and this time i am out for something different. I will crucible melt, slow cool and "wootz treat" an ingot of good old plain 52100 to see if and how this works.

Achim
 
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