I could tell this in a lot of ways but none would be as transparent as letting the email exchanges between Steven (seller) and I (buyer) tell the story. Apologies for the delay in getting this up- my family was moving from MN to CA the week following the original transaction and things have been a little chaotic since then. And further apologies- this is a long one, but a helluva read...
A quick frame up: I saw this large CRK Carbon Fiber Insingo Sebenza for sale on the board and instantly wanted it, described as "Never carried, used or sharpened." Almost immediately Lone_Wolfe posts a reply to the OP which asked if the one listed by the OP is the same as another previously sold on the board (LW provides the link). The previously listed knife being described as "Knife is gently used." I click on LW's link and, sure enough, glock45 was the buyer.
A red flag but I'm blinded by lust so I email the seller an offer, he counters, I agree and send him the funds. I receive the knife the following week and instantly upon opening I deploy the blade and notice serious blade play. I'm relatively new to CRKs but I know this doesn't feel right so I email the seller and descend into the 7th Circle of Hell.
Me to Steven 5/28 @ 7:47 AM:
"Steve,
Received today. At rest she's beautiful, but I've got some serious concerns about the blade stability.
Blade is far from centered when folded, making contact with the CF scale and scrapes the CF scale when deploying out and folding back in. When partially open, blade has side-to-side blade play to the point I'd call it wobbly. Pivot screw was fully tightened when received, so I cannot try tightening it to remedy.
Please advise."
Steven to me 5/28 @ 2:27 PM:
"Will email you when home about 4:00CT. Do not like auto correct phones"
Steven to me 5/28 @ 4:34PM:
"Sorry for the delay in response, I don't like my photo correcting my sentence five or six times each time I write it. I am very sorry you are disappointed with the . I truly don't see any issues with blade play.I know having read much that it is common for this cf Insingo model to not be blade centered for what ever reason. The blade was not scratched or marked at all though when I sent it to you. I realise everyone has different perspectives on many things. So here are your options the way I see them.
1: send the Insingo to Chris Reeve under warranty to have them inspect it. It will cost you postage but no cost for any repairs under warranty that I have ever heard of. I f they send it back in the same condition you know that is how it is supposed to be. Carbon fiber in my opinion will GIVE more than steel/titanium. If you send this knife back to me, buy another one and get the same results nothing will be gained.
2: I don't want you to be unhappy with me thinking I took advantage of you or tried to screw you over. Look at my feedback rating. I want it to stay perfect. So if you decide
to return it to me for a full refund of your purchase price here is what I require.
a. Send it to me priority USPS mail ONLY.NOUPS OR FEDX It will come back to you as I can't sign for it or pick it up. My post office is 3 blocks away and I can get it when I get home.
b. It MUST be insured for the full cost of the knife Total shipping and insurance is about $12-$13 dollars.
c. Pack it well.
d. It MUST have all items in box that I sent you and be in the exact same condition as you received it. Not used carried or sharpened since you received it.
e.When I pick it up at the post office I will go directly home, open the package and if it meets all above conditions, I will directly paypal gift you the price you paid me for the Insingo. Gift since I already have the knife.
I have very high expectations and I'm sure you do too. I realy felt it was in excellent shape but what matters is what you think. It will hurt because I needed the money for car repairs but I will find another way, I want you to feel I have been fair with you. Let me know what you think ."
Me to Steven 5/28 @ 5:33 PM:
"Thanks for the prompt response Steve.
I did significant searching on CRK's pieces with the carbon fiber scale and consistently found claims of "No blade play" or the like and, try as I might, didn't find a single instance of someone experiencing what I'm seeing. Also, given the description of the knife in the posting I don't feel that sending back to Chris should be necessary.
That said, I will be sending this knife back to you in exactly the condition I received it. I am concerned that you seemed unaware of the blade play issue and could be led to believe that the condition you receive it in is not the condition it was in when you sent it. I can't explain the discrepancy but assure you I opened it once, felt the blade wiggle and sent you the original email. So, unless something happened while in the mail, you are receiving exactly as it was sent.
I am moving from MN to CA next week and will try to get it in the mail, with your below requisites, in the next couple of days and will send you the tracking number.
Lastly, while I appreciate your willingness to offer a full gifted refund, I find it bordering on unreasonable that this return is going to cost me ~$15 when I have zero liability here. I understand however that situations like this are an inherent risk of buying on the forum.
I'll be in touch.
-Rex"
Steven to me 5/28 @ 6:08 PM:
"I respect your position and your perspective. If this would have been a sub $100.00 sale no big deal. However you can understand the position I am in now. A +- $400.000 knife that I had returned, and that anal forum detectives that cratic everything you do, I will have a very hard time trying to sell this, so I don't think asking you to pay shipping and insurance is all that bad from your end. I am truly sorry you are not happy. I would like to afford to keep this but a $12.00 an hour job doesn't allow to much wiggle room when buying and selling expensive knives. I have collected knives for more than 40 years and after losing my good paying factory job of 25 years I have had to sell off most of what I have, not your problem, I understand. But most businesses do not pay you to send a return back to them and neither can I. Hopefully this doesn't give you too bad of an opinion of me and my practices. Thanks for your understanding."
Steven to me 5/28 @ 7:23 PM:
"After thinking about this, prove that I wanted to take advantage of you.. I did not enter in to this with the thought of screwing you. I will loose more than you unless you can prove I had planned on on it . Have a great day."
Me to Steven 5/28 @ 8:48 PM:
"I'm not sure I follow. I never claimed you were deliberately trying to deceive me, but that you were either unaware of the condition of the knife when you sent it or that you and I simply disagree on what condition "Never carried, used or sharpened" (from your listing) actually means. Either way, I've made it clear that I am unhappy with the condition, consider it different than your posting and have requested a refund. If anything, I took the high road here.
I've made my request clear and you have responded that you understood my position and agreed to take the knife back for a full refund. If you are changing course here, my next action will be to open a PayPal claim, one I'm confident I'll win. I believe the aggressive, defiant and challenging email you just sent will not work well in your favor, nor will your clearly dishonest listing that the knife was "Never carried, used or sharpened" though the person you purchased it from, as proven by the identified listing being shown, explicitly said it was infact not in unused condition ("Knife is gently used").
At this point, I'm now requesting that you refund my entire purchase price and only then will I return the knife. Short of this, I will be opening a PayPal claim tonight.
I encourage you to very quickly either send me notice that my payment has been refunded or let me know that you agree a PayPal claim is the best way to handle this.
-Rex"
At mid-night after not hearing back from Steven, I open a PayPal Goods and Services dispute for reason: "Significantly Other Than Described". I presume PayPal notified Steven of the claim having been opened.
Steven to me 5/29 @ 5:16 AM:
Rex, I will honor our agreement to take back the Insingo as originally stated. I will not pay you until I receive the knife and I will not pay you shipping or insurance, for all I know you could have just changed your mind about buying it. Sorry it escalated quickly last night. I have never had dealings with anyone such as this before. Let us just move forward and get through this as soon as possible and go our separate ways. What say you.
Me to Steven 5/29 @ 8:05 AM:
"Sorry Steve, that ship has sailed. You have shown a serious lack of integrity and I do not trust you.
Like you, whether as the buyer or as the seller, I always make PayPal payments as Goods & Services in the event something like this comes along. I too have never had an experience like this and am thankful I have PayPal's Buyer Protection to leverage.
To that end, I have initiated a PayPal dispute on this matter which I will escalate to a claim if a refund is not issued by you by 17:00 CDT.
Further, I'm undecided on whether to share this issue with Rev Devil, which would undoubtedly threaten your standing in BF.com just as a dispute as a seller will threaten your standing with PayPal.
I see two options for you:
1) Immediately issue a full refund, only after which I will return the knife to you
2) Ready yourself for a PayPal dispute
Lastly, I see no need for any further communication between us. If you refund the payment I will send you tracking info through PayPal. If I have not received notice that a refund has been processed, I will escalate the current dispute to a claim, of which I'm sure you would be notified by PayPal.
This has been a serious waste of my time and I refuse to sink anymore into it.
Good day."
On 5/29 @ 10:40 AM I get a notification from PayPal that Steven sent me the same amount I paid him (not a refund, a F&F payment), and that the dispute has been closed.
Steven to me on 5/29 @ 3:09 PM:
"OK Rex, you have your entire purchase price refunded and you have my knife. Let's see your integrity. If I get my knife back in a reasonable amount of time, upon receiving it in the same condition you received it , I will reimburse you for priority shipping and insurance."
(I don't reply)
Steven to me 5/29 @ 7:03PM:
"Ok you are the man, that should make you proud you f****d me and you are a man. Now give me my money that you owe me. I will contact IC3. gov internet forum you will be reviewed by the government."
Me to Steven 5/29 @ 7:29 PM:
"Steve,
Relax.
I told you no further communication was necessary and I meant it. I also told you exactly how this would progress should you refund my payment: I got a notification from PayPal that my money had been returned and right now your knife is packaged up, ready to go. Your insistence that the knife be shipped USPS means that I have to wait until tomorrow to ship rather than using FedEx or UPS, and I am following your request to the 'T'.
When I am able to make it to the USPS and get this out, I'll send you tracking info, just like I said I would.
Additionally, I will be posting this story, along with all of your ranting, incoherent and abusive communication on Bladeforum.com. My goal is that no one else has to deal with you ever again.
Lastly, and this is important: Your communication has crossed into harassment and I am requesting you do not contact me again, for any reason."
I've received my refund, sent the knife back as requested in a timely manner, and send Steven a PayPal invoice for $10 for shipping/insurance.
Steven to me 6/3 @ 6:40 PM:
"Please hold your breath until payment received, thank you."
I truly hope Steven sees this and responds, clearing this whole thing up for me and everyone else. Short of that, beware of this seller.
Last, many thanks to Lone_Wolfe for trading emails with me one this, helping me understand options and my responsibilities as a buyer.
Edited for language.
A quick frame up: I saw this large CRK Carbon Fiber Insingo Sebenza for sale on the board and instantly wanted it, described as "Never carried, used or sharpened." Almost immediately Lone_Wolfe posts a reply to the OP which asked if the one listed by the OP is the same as another previously sold on the board (LW provides the link). The previously listed knife being described as "Knife is gently used." I click on LW's link and, sure enough, glock45 was the buyer.
A red flag but I'm blinded by lust so I email the seller an offer, he counters, I agree and send him the funds. I receive the knife the following week and instantly upon opening I deploy the blade and notice serious blade play. I'm relatively new to CRKs but I know this doesn't feel right so I email the seller and descend into the 7th Circle of Hell.
Me to Steven 5/28 @ 7:47 AM:
"Steve,
Received today. At rest she's beautiful, but I've got some serious concerns about the blade stability.
Blade is far from centered when folded, making contact with the CF scale and scrapes the CF scale when deploying out and folding back in. When partially open, blade has side-to-side blade play to the point I'd call it wobbly. Pivot screw was fully tightened when received, so I cannot try tightening it to remedy.
Please advise."
Steven to me 5/28 @ 2:27 PM:
"Will email you when home about 4:00CT. Do not like auto correct phones"
Steven to me 5/28 @ 4:34PM:
"Sorry for the delay in response, I don't like my photo correcting my sentence five or six times each time I write it. I am very sorry you are disappointed with the . I truly don't see any issues with blade play.I know having read much that it is common for this cf Insingo model to not be blade centered for what ever reason. The blade was not scratched or marked at all though when I sent it to you. I realise everyone has different perspectives on many things. So here are your options the way I see them.
1: send the Insingo to Chris Reeve under warranty to have them inspect it. It will cost you postage but no cost for any repairs under warranty that I have ever heard of. I f they send it back in the same condition you know that is how it is supposed to be. Carbon fiber in my opinion will GIVE more than steel/titanium. If you send this knife back to me, buy another one and get the same results nothing will be gained.
2: I don't want you to be unhappy with me thinking I took advantage of you or tried to screw you over. Look at my feedback rating. I want it to stay perfect. So if you decide
to return it to me for a full refund of your purchase price here is what I require.
a. Send it to me priority USPS mail ONLY.NOUPS OR FEDX It will come back to you as I can't sign for it or pick it up. My post office is 3 blocks away and I can get it when I get home.
b. It MUST be insured for the full cost of the knife Total shipping and insurance is about $12-$13 dollars.
c. Pack it well.
d. It MUST have all items in box that I sent you and be in the exact same condition as you received it. Not used carried or sharpened since you received it.
e.When I pick it up at the post office I will go directly home, open the package and if it meets all above conditions, I will directly paypal gift you the price you paid me for the Insingo. Gift since I already have the knife.
I have very high expectations and I'm sure you do too. I realy felt it was in excellent shape but what matters is what you think. It will hurt because I needed the money for car repairs but I will find another way, I want you to feel I have been fair with you. Let me know what you think ."
Me to Steven 5/28 @ 5:33 PM:
"Thanks for the prompt response Steve.
I did significant searching on CRK's pieces with the carbon fiber scale and consistently found claims of "No blade play" or the like and, try as I might, didn't find a single instance of someone experiencing what I'm seeing. Also, given the description of the knife in the posting I don't feel that sending back to Chris should be necessary.
That said, I will be sending this knife back to you in exactly the condition I received it. I am concerned that you seemed unaware of the blade play issue and could be led to believe that the condition you receive it in is not the condition it was in when you sent it. I can't explain the discrepancy but assure you I opened it once, felt the blade wiggle and sent you the original email. So, unless something happened while in the mail, you are receiving exactly as it was sent.
I am moving from MN to CA next week and will try to get it in the mail, with your below requisites, in the next couple of days and will send you the tracking number.
Lastly, while I appreciate your willingness to offer a full gifted refund, I find it bordering on unreasonable that this return is going to cost me ~$15 when I have zero liability here. I understand however that situations like this are an inherent risk of buying on the forum.
I'll be in touch.
-Rex"
Steven to me 5/28 @ 6:08 PM:
"I respect your position and your perspective. If this would have been a sub $100.00 sale no big deal. However you can understand the position I am in now. A +- $400.000 knife that I had returned, and that anal forum detectives that cratic everything you do, I will have a very hard time trying to sell this, so I don't think asking you to pay shipping and insurance is all that bad from your end. I am truly sorry you are not happy. I would like to afford to keep this but a $12.00 an hour job doesn't allow to much wiggle room when buying and selling expensive knives. I have collected knives for more than 40 years and after losing my good paying factory job of 25 years I have had to sell off most of what I have, not your problem, I understand. But most businesses do not pay you to send a return back to them and neither can I. Hopefully this doesn't give you too bad of an opinion of me and my practices. Thanks for your understanding."
Steven to me 5/28 @ 7:23 PM:
"After thinking about this, prove that I wanted to take advantage of you.. I did not enter in to this with the thought of screwing you. I will loose more than you unless you can prove I had planned on on it . Have a great day."
Me to Steven 5/28 @ 8:48 PM:
"I'm not sure I follow. I never claimed you were deliberately trying to deceive me, but that you were either unaware of the condition of the knife when you sent it or that you and I simply disagree on what condition "Never carried, used or sharpened" (from your listing) actually means. Either way, I've made it clear that I am unhappy with the condition, consider it different than your posting and have requested a refund. If anything, I took the high road here.
I've made my request clear and you have responded that you understood my position and agreed to take the knife back for a full refund. If you are changing course here, my next action will be to open a PayPal claim, one I'm confident I'll win. I believe the aggressive, defiant and challenging email you just sent will not work well in your favor, nor will your clearly dishonest listing that the knife was "Never carried, used or sharpened" though the person you purchased it from, as proven by the identified listing being shown, explicitly said it was infact not in unused condition ("Knife is gently used").
At this point, I'm now requesting that you refund my entire purchase price and only then will I return the knife. Short of this, I will be opening a PayPal claim tonight.
I encourage you to very quickly either send me notice that my payment has been refunded or let me know that you agree a PayPal claim is the best way to handle this.
-Rex"
At mid-night after not hearing back from Steven, I open a PayPal Goods and Services dispute for reason: "Significantly Other Than Described". I presume PayPal notified Steven of the claim having been opened.
Steven to me 5/29 @ 5:16 AM:
Rex, I will honor our agreement to take back the Insingo as originally stated. I will not pay you until I receive the knife and I will not pay you shipping or insurance, for all I know you could have just changed your mind about buying it. Sorry it escalated quickly last night. I have never had dealings with anyone such as this before. Let us just move forward and get through this as soon as possible and go our separate ways. What say you.
Me to Steven 5/29 @ 8:05 AM:
"Sorry Steve, that ship has sailed. You have shown a serious lack of integrity and I do not trust you.
Like you, whether as the buyer or as the seller, I always make PayPal payments as Goods & Services in the event something like this comes along. I too have never had an experience like this and am thankful I have PayPal's Buyer Protection to leverage.
To that end, I have initiated a PayPal dispute on this matter which I will escalate to a claim if a refund is not issued by you by 17:00 CDT.
Further, I'm undecided on whether to share this issue with Rev Devil, which would undoubtedly threaten your standing in BF.com just as a dispute as a seller will threaten your standing with PayPal.
I see two options for you:
1) Immediately issue a full refund, only after which I will return the knife to you
2) Ready yourself for a PayPal dispute
Lastly, I see no need for any further communication between us. If you refund the payment I will send you tracking info through PayPal. If I have not received notice that a refund has been processed, I will escalate the current dispute to a claim, of which I'm sure you would be notified by PayPal.
This has been a serious waste of my time and I refuse to sink anymore into it.
Good day."
On 5/29 @ 10:40 AM I get a notification from PayPal that Steven sent me the same amount I paid him (not a refund, a F&F payment), and that the dispute has been closed.
Steven to me on 5/29 @ 3:09 PM:
"OK Rex, you have your entire purchase price refunded and you have my knife. Let's see your integrity. If I get my knife back in a reasonable amount of time, upon receiving it in the same condition you received it , I will reimburse you for priority shipping and insurance."
(I don't reply)
Steven to me 5/29 @ 7:03PM:
"Ok you are the man, that should make you proud you f****d me and you are a man. Now give me my money that you owe me. I will contact IC3. gov internet forum you will be reviewed by the government."
Me to Steven 5/29 @ 7:29 PM:
"Steve,
Relax.
I told you no further communication was necessary and I meant it. I also told you exactly how this would progress should you refund my payment: I got a notification from PayPal that my money had been returned and right now your knife is packaged up, ready to go. Your insistence that the knife be shipped USPS means that I have to wait until tomorrow to ship rather than using FedEx or UPS, and I am following your request to the 'T'.
When I am able to make it to the USPS and get this out, I'll send you tracking info, just like I said I would.
Additionally, I will be posting this story, along with all of your ranting, incoherent and abusive communication on Bladeforum.com. My goal is that no one else has to deal with you ever again.
Lastly, and this is important: Your communication has crossed into harassment and I am requesting you do not contact me again, for any reason."
I've received my refund, sent the knife back as requested in a timely manner, and send Steven a PayPal invoice for $10 for shipping/insurance.
Steven to me 6/3 @ 6:40 PM:
"Please hold your breath until payment received, thank you."
I truly hope Steven sees this and responds, clearing this whole thing up for me and everyone else. Short of that, beware of this seller.
Last, many thanks to Lone_Wolfe for trading emails with me one this, helping me understand options and my responsibilities as a buyer.
Edited for language.
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