Worth heat treating a factory knife?

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fields_mj

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Nov 29, 2015
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I'm considering getting a Kizer Begleiter drop point in 3v for a hunting knife. I like the shape and thickness for the way I use my hunting knives, and 3V at 62-64 should make for excellent performance. Problem is that I have ZERO confidence in Kizer's (or anyone remotely close to their price range) heat treat with cpm3v. If I get one and don't like the performance , it seems like removing the scales, stoning the edge back to .015 or so and sending it to Peter's should correct the issue. I realize there will be work involved when it returns, and I'm fine with that. I'd want to replace the scales with something that fits the hand better anyway, so work was already in the picture. Worth the adventure, or likely a wasted effort?
 
fields_mj said:
I'm considering getting a Kizer Begleiter drop point in 3v for a hunting knife. I like the shape and thickness for the way I use my hunting knives, and 3V at 62-64 should make for excellent performance. Problem is that I have ZERO confidence in Kizer's (or anyone remotely close to their price range) heat treat with cpm3v. If I get one and don't like the performance , it seems like removing the scales, stoning the edge back to .015 or so and sending it to Peter's should correct the issue. I realize there will be work involved when it returns, and I'm fine with that. I'd want to replace the scales with something that fits the hand better anyway, so work was already in the picture. Worth the adventure, or likely a wasted effort?
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I see you are in Indiana, there are lots of solid American smiths that can provide you with a great blade. I own 2 from Robert at Ironhead Forge, he has good high tech equipment for heat treating. Email him from his website and show him a photo of what you are looking for and see what he says.
 
My assumption is that a custom knife will start at $300, and go up from there. I've cobbled together a couple of knives over the years. Nothing fancy, just some O1 steel. Enough to know that $300 for a custom knife is on the cheap side. While I can certainly afford a +$300 knife, I'm just not looking for that. If kizer would run their AEBL at 62-63, I'd get that blade in AEBL for $60, make new scales for it and be tickled pink with it. This is a fixed blade that's going to spend most of its live in my backpack in the basement. October through December, the pack comes out and the knife gets used to field dress and potentially skin a few deer. When Christmas arrives, the backpack returns to the basement. For me, that's not a $300+ knife. I've even been known to use a couple of $3 knives from Walmart just to see how much of a pain in the rear it was. Turns out it wasn't half bad so long as you keep a decent steel handy.
 
fields_mj said:
If I get one and don't like the performance , it seems like removing the scales, stoning the edge back to .015 or so and sending it to Peter's should correct the issue.
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Is that even a possible scenario? You can send an already finished production blade to them for a re-heat treat process?
 
Jsega51 said:
Is that even a possible scenario? You can send an already finished production blade to them for a re-heat treat process?
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Honestly, not sure. Thus the question. From a purely scientific perspective, yeah. Once the steel reaches the austinizing temp and completes it's soak, the molecular structure is back to where it started. It's just a question of what happened to the steel along the way
 
fields_mj said:
My assumption is that a custom knife will start at $300, and go up from there. I've cobbled together a couple of knives over the years. Nothing fancy, just some O1 steel. Enough to know that $300 for a custom knife is on the cheap side. While I can certainly afford a +$300 knife, I'm just not looking for that. If kizer would run their AEBL at 62-63, I'd get that blade in AEBL for $60, make new scales for it and be tickled pink with it. This is a fixed blade that's going to spend most of its live in my backpack in the basement. October through December, the pack comes out and the knife gets used to field dress and potentially skin a few deer. When Christmas arrives, the backpack returns to the basement. For me, that's not a $300+ knife. I've even been known to use a couple of $3 knives from Walmart just to see how much of a pain in the rear it was. Turns out it wasn't half bad so long as you keep a decent steel handy.
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if the role of your blade here is as stated, whatever Kizer gives you from the factory will be more than enough. Just get a nice edge on it and you'll be good to go! You could throw a 440C beater in there and still get the job done. IMO dont stress over steel type and HRC. Once you get your own edge on it, you'll like it. Just my two cents after owning blades all over the spectrum, and using them.
 
I love custom knives and have at least six, including a couple made to my order. I also have many more older knives from well known manufacturers, some of which I used quite a bit for hunting, fishing, etc. Down all the years I broke just one, a favorite european folder, cutting bait. Still don't know how, and I have the warrantee replacement to this day. How many folks have broken quality production knives doing pretty much whatever was needed? I won't even leave out War
 
I’ve used way less knives than that Kizer to process dozens and dozens (hundreds if you count squirrels and rabbits) of animals.
 
If you have no confidence in a maker’s heat treat then I would recommend not buying any knife from them. And, if you cannot trust their heat treat, how can you trust that the steel is even what they claim it is? See where this is heading?

It’s more likely that Kizer has heat treated their 3v properly and at the hardness range they published.
 
I've got a buddy that processed two deer with a Kizer mini harpoon in 3V without any issues, pretty sure their heat treat is pretty good.
 
Yadeadman said:
I've got a buddy that processed two deer with a Kizer mini harpoon in 3V without any issues, pretty sure their heat treat is pretty good.
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I have that knife. That's why I'm not impressed with their heat treat. I can process multiple deer as well, but the knife is noticeably dull before the first one is skinned. It's also possible that your buddy got a reall6good one. Honestly, if you I found one on sale, it would be worth it even with a crappy heat treat.

SharpBits said:
If you have no confidence in a maker’s heat treat then I would recommend not buying any knife from them. And, if you cannot trust their heat treat, how can you trust that the steel is even what they claim it is? See where this is heading?

It’s more likely that Kizer has heat treated their 3v properly and at the hardness range they published.
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That's plain ridiculous. Heat treating large batches of high alloy steel produces a LOT of variation in the batch. That's not even close to saying that it's not 3V.

KnightAspirant said:
if the role of your blade here is as stated, whatever Kizer gives you from the factory will be more than enough. Just get a nice edge on it and you'll be good to go! You could throw a 440C beater in there and still get the job done. IMO dont stress over steel type and HRC. Once you get your own edge on it, you'll like it. Just my two cents after owning blades all over the spectrum, and using them.
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440 is too brittle for me. I often tap the knife through the pelvis with a hammer. I also use a cute angles. Thus my interest in tougher steels like 3v and aebl.

Either way, sounds like it wouldn't be worth the effort. Question asked and answered. Genuinely appreciate all the responses.
 
fields_mj said:
Honestly, not sure. Thus the question. From a purely scientific perspective, yeah. Once the steel reaches the austinizing temp and completes it's soak, the molecular structure is back to where it started. It's just a question of what happened to the steel along the way
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This isn’t entirely accurate. There aren’t any molecules in steel - it’s an atomic lattice. Regardless, it doesn’t just return to where it started when it’s re-austenitized. Alloys like this need an annealing cycle after they’ve previously been hardened, before the process of re-hardening, otherwise bad things can happen. Consider picking up a copy of Larrin Thomas’s book “Knife Engineering” - I wish more knife buyers would, as it goes a long way to explaining how this stuff works, and there’s a LOT of misinformation and misconceptions I see regarding stuff like this.

Anyway, there are a lot of stumbling blocks in the way of doing this correctly. Despite having control of the atmosphere pretty decently, places like Peters will still have decarb occur. There’s really no getting around it. So, the entire blade would not only need to be annealed and re-hardened, it would also need to be reground to remove decarb, which will change dimensions. It might also warp, which would need to be addressed post-heat treat. And, you might follow through with all of the proper steps and conclude that the end result wasn’t worth the process. Good knifemakers go through all of these steps to determine where they want to land with a given alloy, and what they can expect of it on those ranges. That alone might be reason to have a similar knife made by a custom maker that’s willing, and that has done their homework.
 
fields_mj said:
That's plain ridiculous. Heat treating large batches of high alloy steel produces a LOT of variation in the batch.
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So you don't trust any manufacturer's heat treat, nor do you trust the heat treats of commercial heat treaters like Bos, Peters, etc.? Got it. Full custom is the way to go in that case and only from one custom maker who does their own 3V heat treating. Won't be inexpensive.
 
To get what you want, how you want it, is probably impossible. What you're asking for is to buy a Toyota Camry, send it back to the factory to rebuild every part and turn it into a Supra, and expect it to cost less than just buying a new Supra.

If that process sounds fun to you, I say spend your money how you like. If not, I suggest one of the alternative options folks have mentioned.

For me personally, the last deer I processed was with a hunting knife made by David Mary, in 15N20. The steel performed beautifully from my perspective. I wasn't exactly doing competition chopper work, but skinning, a couple of joints, and a few run ins with a scapula left the edge in great condition still.
 
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