WTH is going on!!

Stephen--- I don't have any intention/desire to start a disagreement with you on that (politics and religion seem to invite that, LOL)... But I wasn't brought up with religion and I have never had the slightest desire to go shoot anyone or hurt anyone with the exception of a couple times when my loved ones were threatened.

Just say'n....
 
I'll throw my 2 cents in here as well. I agree with what Nick has said, and I was not raised in a religious home either. I am not a religious person myself and yesterday's events again show me why I have chosen the beliefs I have.

There are good people in this world and there are bad people, there always have been and there always will be. Until we start caring more about things that matter, it will continue to get worse.

My heart hurts for those families, as I could not imagine what they are going through. It makes me sick and bothers me to my core.
 
I think we all agree that this tragedy...and its answer....are not answered just by laws, or just by religion. It will take a big change for these type of incidents to become less common. Sadly, they will never stop.

While there are other forums for this type topic, I think ATG is a good place for the Shop Talk folks to let out a little angst and open up among their friends. This thread would have taken a bad turn in other places.

Kudos to all you for speaking from the heart, and not attacking the others who did the same. We all travel on this ball of rocks together :)
 
Or you could unplug your TV. Life gets better after that.
 
The following is attributed to Morgan Freeman (whether correctly or not I cannot say):

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.


It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."
Click to expand...
 
The victim that stood out in my mind, was the assailants mother.
 
Ron- EXCELLENT point!!! I won't lie, I like me some TV.... but damn if isn't full of a bunch of crazy crap and I'm quite sure all the "news" networks are owned by the manufacturers of anti-depressant drugs. :eek: The best way I can think of to make you feel like the world sucks, is to watch the 5 o'clock news....

Calvin- great attachment!!! :)
 
gimmejr said:
and erectile dysfuncion medication.
Click to expand...

Woah! I love my country to death, and did serve. But there is no way anything going on in this country is going to effect my slice of American Pie. :D Is that selfish of me?
 
First off I wish to convey my sincere condolences to all the victims taken far too early this past week. I pray the survivors can find peace soon.

Violent crime will always happen unfortunately. Mass murder will also be in the limelight. I just looked at the crime rates. The US ranks #1 with 11million violent crimes in 2011, reduced gun regulations and a right to protection. We have a population of 314million. Now look at England, Very strict gun laws, to even touch an unauthorized firearm (as if many were authorized) is punishable by prison, and no right to self protection. There violent crime rates were in the 6.5million range and they have a population of 65million. So their crime rate is 4x higher than the US but they have much more control on guns. I have also been researching mass killings in other countries. Sadly we do rank at the top however the worst school mass killing was the Bath Michigan Killings. The perpetrator used a bomb and killed 38 children, 6 adults and finally himself. He spent weeks planning and planting the explosives. Then also already mentioned China has had several killings that the perpetrators used knives and was just as effective. Another mass killing took place in Africa, he killed 36 using a bolt action rifle and ax.

No we will not solve our problems by MORE gun control. It is already illegal to kill someone with or without a gun, no matter what color or how many rounds it holds. Yes it is illegal to carry a gun into a school unless the state allows those with concealed carry license to do so. Oregon does allow CHL to carry in school. We have not had a serious event in a school since we began CHL.

Little known fact about the Clackamas Mall shooting, A CHL holder was at the food court when the shooting began. He got his friend and her daughter covered. Then drew his weapon while the gunman was trying to clear his ar15. But at the last moment before he pulled the trigger he saw movement behind the gunman. He made a call not to shoot for fear of hitting an innocent. The shooter saw him aiming his firearm at him and did not fire another shot, left the food court, then killed himself. Now I cannot say for sure but it seems to me that the CHL holder stopped a far more tragic scenario from being carried out without having to fire a single round. Funny how this has not made national news.

What do we need to do? I can't say for sure. If I say no gun control and defend my right to own firearms and even an AR15 with 30 round mags, some will say I am insensitive or worse a baby killer. I can assure you I am neither but I do not feel that further gun control is the answer. Especially to the extent the anti gun folks want it taken. There is a much deeper issue here that we need to look at.
 
I too am sick about this. We have grandkids in schools. They were told about this at school. When I was their age we didnt have video games and TV was always fun to watch. Nothing is held back from children anymore. I'm a church goer and a believer but only after hitting bottom in life myself. Born again and loving it.

Gun control isnt the answer. I own guns and want to keep them just to protect myself and my family.

I got this the other day and saved it. It says allot about gun control and history.

Image9.jpg
 
Unfortunately, there are and always will be a few disturbed people who are responcible for terrible situations like this. No prohibition(s) will ever stop them. No deterent will either. It is my most furvent hope that such events don't prompt the knee-jerk few to overreact and punish the innocent majority.

In tragedies like this, I place part of the blame on the media. It's unfortunate but anything that will increase their ratings will get the most coverage by the media. I sometimes think that we would be better off it the situation was handled quietly and LET THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE CRIME. I by no means want a police state here in the US but believe that if you intentionally take someone's life then you should pay the ultimate price (and not sit on death row for years).

I usually don't get on my soap box this way so please excuse me. All my prayers go out to the innocent victums and their families.

Gary
 
I had a short conversation about all this with a friend from Australia yesterday. They have pretty stringent gun control laws in Australia. The same can be said of a lot of countries that have democratic governments and lower crime rates.

I fully anticipated the sort of response Bruce added to the thread. It's typical NRA hype. Show pictures of evil dictators and make believe those are the sort of people that prefer gun control. Plant the seed that anyone seeking gun control wants to drive us into evil dictatorships and subservience. Pretend, as some folks do, that having everyone in the country armed is really the way to a safer America.

Well, I gotta say, we've tried that way for about 200+ years now, and the records show we aren't the safest country. Other countries that have managed to avoid evil dictatorships are doing so without having the citizenry armed to the teeth.

And we also see from NRA types ads that presumably show an Israeli teacher with a grim look holding a Uzi, decrying the fact that we disarm our teachers instead of doing the smart thing and giving them automatic weapons. But let's be honest, mandatory military service is part of the Israeli way of life. Everyone there is trained to be able to use the weapons without flinching. What percentage of Americans are trained on semi-auto weapons to do more than kill paper targets and plink in the forest? How many of them would REALLY be ready to stand and defend when the need arises? How many of them actually know how to safely store a weapon in the house so the kids can't get to them and cause mayhem?

Look, I'm not saying I'm definitely for gun control. I'm not. I am for a more balanced and less hyperbolic discussion of the subject. If we gun rights enthusiasts would STOP using the NRA bullshit posters and start using our brains, I think we'd make better arguments and make more sense. Instead, we that like our guns come off as nutbags because we can't clearly articulate a path forward that doesn't involve ridiculous never-going-to-happen scenarios like training all our teachers to be soldiers or giving everyone fully automatic weapons to keep everyone else at bay.

So is it possible to leave the hype behind and really discuss what weapons we need and why we need them? If not, then we deserve the strict gun controls that are likely to follow.

What *I* personally want to be able to keep are revolvers. I own two today, and they are appropriate for home defense (the only practical use for guns I have). I don't need or want assault rifles for protecting the home. There is no zombie apocalypse coming, so I have no need to mow down masses of human shaped targets. I once owned an AR15, and yes they are fun to shoot... but they don't serve a practical purpose in our society. I also have owned old military rifles (still do own a Lee Enfield bolt action). Again, not really useful in this society. There are better hunting rifles, should I find a desire to hunt.

So I want to keep revolvers. I'd also like to retain the right to keep semi-auto pistols and shotguns and hunting rifles. Everything else I'd be prepared to accept severe restrictions on.

Look, this doesn't need to be an "all or nothing" discussion, and frankly I think it's foolish to push it in that direction.
 
Well lets look at some crime rates here. Specifically from the Countries with the top 10 highest crimes reported from this website populations are rounded down to the nearest million.

US population of 314 million, 11,877,218 crimes reported Crime rate of 3.7825%

England population of 65 million, 6,523,706 crimes reported Crime rate of 10.036%

Germany population of 81 million, 6,507,394 crimes reported Crime rate of 8.033%

France population of 65 million, 3,771,850 crimes reported Crime rate of 5.802%

Russia population of 142 million, 2,952,370 crimes reported Crime rate of 2.079%

Canada population of 35 milllion, 2,516,918 crimes reported Crime rate of 7.191%

India population of 1.2 BILLION, 1,764,630 crimes reported Crime rate of .1446%

These numbers come from the populations vs crimes reported. I think some of the numbers do not reflect actual crimes since the reporting in those countries and recording of them is probably flawed but that is speculation. Using the raw numbers in percentages the US falls far below many of the other "Democratic" countries in crime. Yet our gun ownership is far above theirs.

After Australia's weapons ban in 1996 the murder rate went up then has been on a decreasing trend. Here is the crime stats link to their data. It was more complex than I wanted to get into this AM. But looking at the assault rates they skyrocketed from 1996 through 2007 then began a slow steady decline. According to their info murders committed with guns have been steady for the past 2 decades with the average being 19 per year. 31% were killed by knives and 40% by other types of devices. Australians for some reason to not kill each other like many of the other "Civilized" nations. The weapons ban has not had a major affect on the murder rate over-all in Australia. They have found other ways to commit the crime.

This is what I researched just this AM. Did not use NRA or Brady Numbers.

How about we look at how the Brady Campaign Against Gun Violence began. In March of 1981 an assassination attempt on Pres Reagan permanently disabled James Brady. Sarah Brady then began a rabid campaign with the original name of the organization Handgun Control INC (HCI) and was later named Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. They wanted to ban handguns. Not just the semi autos all handguns. They came out shouting about high cap magazines. Well for those who do not remember a revolver was used to injure Mr Brady. In fact it was a .22 rimfire. Tyrppyr your revolvers are what started their campaign. They want them gone too. They want all guns gone, period.
 
Chuck, don't be tempted into believing this has to be an all or nothing discussion. Certainly, there are people at the extremes of both ends of the discussion. We don't need to occupy either of the extremes to get what we want or need from this.

Let's just have a REAL conversation about what we want and need.

Regarding military style semi-auto rifles with high capacity magazines, how about saying that only those with military or police experience/training are authorized to own them. At least then we'd be sure that the owners had more than a passing level of familiarity with the weapons and their capability... and hopefully some respect for such things as the ability of the rounds to penetrate walls (or other objects) and hit unseen targets beyond.

Any chance of having such a real conversation, or is polemic all we can muster?
 
By the way, if you're wondering why I don't dive right in an play the statistics game... it's really not very informative. Statistics can (and are) spun to make or break any point on either side. You quote general "crimes reported", but don't distinguish between violent and non-violent (let alone the more specific crimes involving firearms). Please, a real conversation. Not some bogus narrative based on internet statistics.
 
"So I want to keep revolvers. I'd also like to retain the right to keep semi-auto pistols and shotguns and hunting rifles. Everything else I'd be prepared to accept severe restrictions on.
Look, this doesn't need to be an "all or nothing" discussion, and frankly I think it's foolish to push it in that direction. "

I think Greg's last two sentences sum up about 90% of the people.
 
I am willing to discuss anything that will work. Not knee jerk reactions like we have seen happen so many times before.

I am retired Navy. I am familiar with firearms and their operation. BUT this was not because of the military. I took it upon myself to learn. I had not even handled an AR style rifle until 2009. I purchased one and began learning how to use it. Would I or would I not be allowed to own one?? Am I willing to talk about limits on high cap magazines. I have mixed feelings on this. I would rather see a limit on the high caps than an all out ban on AR style weapons. I do use my AR's for hunting. I also use them for home protection. Plus I use them for target shooting and use to use military style weapons (not ar's) for competition. That was until the first postal employee went on his shooting rampage. Then all our team weapons were confiscated and returned to the main depot. Even in Australia and England you can own some types of weapons. If you can justify them. The statistics don't show a reduction in crime in either of those countries after the removal of the "bad" types of guns. In fact it showed just the opposite. The crime rates in the US have been on a steady decline since the mid 90's. The first AWB was put into place in 1994. There was a dramatic reduction in the murder rate for the first few years. But wait what did the AWB do? It stopped the transfer of the banned weapons and magazines and did not remove them from the general populace. Less than 1% of all crimes are committed with AR/AK style weapons. Unfortunately when they do they are high profile. The AWB expired in 2004. The crime/murder rate has been on a steady decline since. The FBI shows that 68% of all homicides are committed with firearms in the US. I would have expected that number to be much higher given the shear number of them available. But still less than 1% are committed with the AR or Military style weapon. There have been over 5 million AR style weapons produced it the US. Plus all the AK SKS that have been imported into the country. There are far more homicides committed in the US with revolvers and 6 stack semi autos than high cap guns in the US.

Now there are those who have said they will fight literally, even to the extent of a civil war. I think this is a bit too much. I will have to accept the laws that are imposed upon us. I will have no choice in the matter. I will not like it but I will comply. I will vote and work towards more laws that will actually work. I personally feel there need only be one law. Love one another. If this were possible we would not be having this discussion.

I have spent far too much time in the last few days IRT this subject. I need to back out now. I appreciate the open discussion here. I hope and pray that this country can come to a viable way to protect our children. Whatever it may be. Like I said somewhere (can't remember were) I would give up all my guns if I thought it would really help. I wish all of you a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. May you and yours be safe this holiday season.
 
Thanks, Chuck. I agree... there are some who honestly feel they will fight for the unfettered right to own any weapon until the weapon is pulled from their cold dead hands. Frankly, those are the ones that worry me the most.

I know some (most) of us can be trusted absolutely in our own right, but we aren't all so trustworthy about how we store and maintain the weapons. I keep mine locked in a safe. No, it wouldn't stop a crook or a kid from getting them, but it would slow them down some.

And if anyone wants to use it against me, I'll openly admit I have no military or police background, so I would by default be excluding myself if the restrictions I mentioned went into effect.

- Greg
 
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