Yangdu's deals for 10/14 -- Pix and rare buys

[munk]

That's disputable, Nasty.

You can keep them virginal if you like, but at least test them before storing them. And I'd add a few more users to your list. Using them really fulfulls the circle.


munk

 

[raghorn]

That's disputable, Nasty.

You can keep them virginal if you like, but at least test them before storing them. And I'd add a few more users to your list. Using them really fulfulls the circle.


munk

I bet he's one a those cho polishers too.

 

[munk]

Oh God. You know what that means? If the Cho is clean; check the toilet. If that's mirror clean, there is a significant problem in the household.



munk

 

[Jebadiah_Smith]

What Jeb is calling a "rabbit tang" is more properly known as a "partial tang." It isn't that any one tang has an advantage, or disadvantage, in strength one over another. Both the stick tang and full, or chiruwa, tang are equally strong and both equally prone to having water spilled on them if the kami isn't careful. The stick tang being thicker should hold up better if Jeb's theory was correct in the full tang being wider, what it makes up for in width it loses in thickness so if water is spilled it is going to harden that area and either are equally likely to fail if that happens.
The partial tang is just as strong as the other two. The problem doesn't lie with the tang, but the handle as it has more stress put on it because of its construction.
However if you drill and pin the handle and tang together, just takes one, it will hold until hell freezes over.
And you can beat it up just as hard as the other two tangs.

QUOTE]

Yvsa,

My concerns about the rabbit/partial are that it will put more pressure on the handle material and break it, or that it will simply pull right out, not being pinned.

A rabbit/partial that goes 3/4 of the way through the handle is of MUCH less concern to me than one that is less than or 1/2. And a pin will solve the pulling out problem. So a long, pinned rabbit tang is just as good or better than a full stick tang. Unfortunately, most khuks arent pinned, have shorter tangs, and are made with laha (which I find inferior to American epoxy)

When I talked about thickness, It was not between partials and full sticks, it was between both of those and a full (chiruwa) tang. Yes, water is just as likely to spill on any style, BUT, if it spills on a chiruwa, the whole thing wont be hardened. I guess what I am getting at here is a sort of differential hardening on the tang. Water on a thin tang can harden the whole thing before evaporating or heating up itself, while water on a thicker tang will only harden the front edge, leaving a still decent back, before it loses its cooling power or evaporates.

Whew! I hope that makes sense to everyone! It does in my twisted little mind.

 

[Nasty]

LOL...okay, *most* of them are clean. Chos are untouched...they are how they came from Nepal. They all get tested...the tools get used, but the weapons are pretty...well, except for the Nasty Gentleman's Sword. I've used that to trim the hedges. It does a fine job, hones my skillz, and has given it a nice patina (okay, grunge).

I figure if I ever use it one anyone, they will at least die of some weird infection.

 

[Yvsa]

Both the stick tang and full, or chiruwa, tang are equally strong and both equally prone to having water spilled on them if the kami isn't careful. The stick tang being thicker should hold up better if Jeb's theory was correct in the full tang being wider, what it makes up for in width it loses in thickness so if water is spilled it is going to harden that area and either are equally likely to fail if that happens.

Yvsa,

My concerns about the rabbit/partial are that it will put more pressure on the handle material and break it, or that it will simply pull right out, not being pinned.

I doubt it will pull out but you're right about the pressure and it possibly breaking.

A rabbit/partial that goes 3/4 of the way through the handle is of MUCH less concern to me than one that is less than or 1/2. And a pin will solve the pulling out problem. So a long, pinned rabbit tang is just as good or better than a full stick tang. Unfortunately, most khuks arent pinned, have shorter tangs, and are made with laha (which I find inferior to American epoxy)

The laha is good for about 5 years of hard everyday use in Nepal, but I agree that the modern epoxy is better, except when you want to remove and replace a handle.

When I talked about thickness, It was not between partials and full sticks,

I knew that.

it was between both of those and a full (chiruwa) tang. Yes, water is just as likely to spill on any style, BUT, if it spills on a chiruwa, the whole thing wont be hardened.

You're right, to a point. The fact is that the stick tang is less likely to be hardened all the way through due to its being thicker than the chiruwa tang. At the juncture where the water is liable to hit the stick tang is almost as wide as the chiruwa and is definitely stronger at that point.

I guess what I am getting at here is a sort of differential hardening on the tang. Water on a thin tang can harden the whole thing before evaporating or heating up itself, while water on a thicker tang will only harden the front edge, leaving a still decent back, before it loses its cooling power or evaporates.

Yup, and you've just stated the case why the stick tang is less likely to harden all the way through due to its being thicker, capish?

The argument is pretty moot in the fact that the tangs, all styles, are supposed to be dead soft. Any part of a tang that is even accidently hardened whether all the way through or not is more apt to breakage at some point in time.
The reason being that if any, even a small, portion of the tang is hardened and generates a crack then the crack is liable to eventually wander all the way through causing breakage.
It doesn't happen often but often enough to cause concern. A broken tang can/could cause great bodily harm. The kamis just need to be more careful.

 

[Jebadiah_Smith]

Yup, and you've just stated the case why the stick tang is less likely to harden all the way through due to its being thicker, capish?

No, no capish . Every chiruwa ive seen is as thick as every stick tang of either variety that ive ever seen, it is also wider. I have no idea what you are talking about with the sticks being thicker and being able to resist full hardening. The argument is not moot because mistates ARE made, and some styles of tang are more resistant to critical failures than others. Its less likely that a chiruwa will break off without notice in mid swing and fly into your leg, either stick tang will. Its more likely to break while prying. And sometimes, you can see the crack forming on a full tang. Dont get me wrong, when a stick is done right its better than a full tang, like Wayne Goddard says in his books, BUT, stick tangs arent always done right. Im not trying to be disrespectful, and I think this has been a great discussion .

 

[Nasty]

The only answer would be to test each one to destruction so that you would know without doubt where each's breaking point is...er...was.

Otherwise:
1. Test every Khukri you get
2. Be certain that on each and every swing, the entire arc of the swing is a safe zone
3. Carry health insurance

 

[Daniel Koster]

Wayne Goddard has also shown that water-hardening does not penetrate as deep as hi-temp oil hardening - or air hardening.

Personally, I think the problem with the tang cracking is not just one of splashed water....think about it for a minute. Ever seen an etched khukuri? The hamon rarely extends past the recurve...usually at least a few inches away from the cho.

So, if the kami is sloppy and is splashing water on the tang, would he not also be splashing water on the recurved part of the blade? And yet, you never hear of it failing there.

All this on top of the fact that splash water is not the same as continuously poured water.....in terms of hardening. A splash will only harden the surface. This has already been discussed.


I think the problem is that enough attention was not paid to the drawing of the tang and it was not thermally cycled enough to make it flexible and to reduce grain size. A large-grained steel will crack more easily. There could also be imperfections in the steel.

Furthermore, is the tang being tempered properly? Who knows....that will make a heckuva lot more difference than splashed water. Maybe when the kamis get rushed, they not only get sloppy, but try to speed up the process by not letting the steel temper long enough? It's hard to say.

But the above problems have nothing to do with whether or not it is a chiruwa.

 

[Khukuri Monster]

Interesting. Do the kamis normalize and anneal the blades before hardening them?

 

[Yvsa]

No, no capish . Every chiruwa ive seen is as thick as every stick tang of either variety that ive ever seen, it is also wider.

Sorry you don't "capish," I'll see if I can 'splain it better.
I'll give you the wider as that is obvious. I'll address the thickness issue at the bottom...

I have no idea what you are talking about with the sticks being thicker and being able to resist full hardening.

Jeb the rat tail and partial tangs are as thick as the blade and only a little narrower at the juncture of tang and blade. At the juncture where most of the rat tail tangs have failed the thickness would probably equal out to the width if it was forged thinner as the Chiruwa tangs are.

The argument is not moot because mistates ARE made, and some styles of tang are more resistant to critical failures than others.

The argument IS moot when it is between the rat tail and partial tangs versus the Chiruwa tang as the tangs are all equally strong.
And why would one style of tang be more apt to critical failure than another as far as the tang itself? A partial tang's handle will be weaker due to the tang not extending all the way through and creating a stress point in the handle, nothing to do with the strength of the tang though.

Its less likely that a chiruwa will break off without notice in mid swing and fly into your leg, either stick tang will.

I don't understand your reasoning behind this except that you could "possibly" see a crack forming that you couldn't see in a hidden tang?

Its more likely to break while prying. And sometimes, you can see the crack forming on a full tang. Dont get me wrong, when a stick is done right its better than a full tang, like Wayne Goddard says in his books, BUT, stick tangs arent always done right. Im not trying to be disrespectful, and I think this has been a great discussion .

It is a great discussion.

Being equally strong I doubt that any tang other than the partial tang would fail due to prying. The partial tang's handle could possibly fail under that circumstance due to the stress point in the handle but still isn't due to the tang's strength.

Jeb you made me work today, had to get my trusty micrometer out to do some measureing on the only 3 Chiruwa style handled khuks I have, an old WW II, an HI M-43 and the 14" BDC I traded Nasty out of, here are the results....

(The 14" BDC's blade thickness at bolster... .305" or almost 5/16".
Tang at top of handle at end of bolster... .165" or a little over 5/32" in thickness.
Tang at bottom of handle at end of bolster... .135" or a little over 1/8" in thickness.)

(The new HI M-43's blade thickness at bolster... .330" or about 21/64", between 5/16" and 11/32".
Tang at top of handle at end of bolster... .210" or a tad under 7/32" with 7/32" being .218".
Tang at bottom of handle at bolster... .187" or 3/16" thick.)

(The old WW II's blade thickness at bolster... .300" or a tad under 5/16"
Tang at top of handle at bolster... .245" or almost 1/4" thick.
Tang at bottom of handle at bolster... .165" or between 5/32"(.156") and 11/64" (.1719")

With that you can see that the Chiruwa handles are thinner than the blade and even thinner where it is most likely to be splashed with water, at the bottom of the handle where the edge of the blade is going to be. On the other hand the rat tail and partial tangs are as thick as the blade and not thinned out as the Chiruwa handles are which makes them just as strong or perhaps even stronger. Now do you capish?

Not conducive to this discussion but many of the old Chiruwa tanged khukuris I've seen have even a greater differential between the blade thickness and tang thickness with quite a few of them being even thinner and especially at the bottom of the handle than the modern HI khukuri's!
But they weren't made for chopping and general destruction as the modern HI khukuri's are.
My BDC is much closer to many of the old style Chiruwa tanged khukuris than any other modern khukuri I've seen, which I admit isn't a lot as I'm not a real fan of the Chiruwa style tang.
I'm sure it will hold up to anything I would put it through but then I wouldn't push the envelope with it like I might do with a Chiruwa AK just because it isn't made for the same purpose.
However I would do anything with my rat tail tanged 18" AK as I would with an 18" Chiruwa tanged khukuri.

 

[Nasty]

How's the edge on that BDC holding up Edutsi? I have to admit that I sort of miss that one you old horse trader!

 

[Yvsa]

How's the edge on that BDC holding up Edutsi? I have to admit that I sort of miss that one you old horse trader!

Holding up Great!!!! But - all it's done is shave arm hair as it's just too pretty to use.
Actually it's still by my recliner where I put it when we traded. I just don't have the heart to put it in the safe where it can neither be seen nor fondled. I've pulled it a few times when I opened the backdoor to let the dog out or in when I've heard a bump in the night. The 14" BDC is a perfect size for home defense IMO!

 

[Nasty]

I'm glad it satisfies you *and* keeps you safe...

 

[Jebadiah_Smith]

Yvsa,

Thats some nice measuring, sorry I made you work! . BUT, I still just dont agree. Mama always said I was hard headed (guess thats why im still around after being dropped on my head so much)

Even if the sticks are thicker, theres still just more metal on a full tang. Theres no getting around that, as someone else stated. And on the one failure I have seen, and im sure you have seen more than I have, it broke farther down the tang, not near the top. My reasoning in seeing a crack forming is that the area which was hardened would be exposed on the blade side, and a crack would show up on the outside before going all the way through.

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. I have never seen a full tang fail, while I have seen plenty of both sticks fail. Maybe a full tang on a khuk is thinner, but not on most other knives I have seen (or made). And if I was ever given the choice of taking a full tang into a survival situation, or taking a partial/rabbit tang into a survival situation, I would choose the full tang. Every single time.

Its been fun, but I just came in from shooting and cleaning a mess of ducks, and I am whipped. Goodnight.

 

[Yvsa]

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree here.

Yup.

Dont get me wrong, when a stick is done right its better than a full tang, like Wayne Goddard says in his books, BUT, stick tangs arent always done right.

And therein lies the problem. If the kamis were more careful and didn't splash water on the stick tangs they would be done right and not fail.
And there have been a few Chiruwa tangs fail, just not as many that we know about as all are not reported here.
And there aren't as many Chiruwa handles made or sold as there are the standard stick tang.

Do you agree with Wayne Goddard about the stick tang done right being better?
There's lots of old timers that feel the same way. I'm proud to be counted among 'em.

 

[Daniel Koster]

maybe we should start of list of those who agree that a hidden tang can be just as strong?

I'll start......Ed Fowler, Bill Moran, Wayne Goddard....








Even so, the principals that apply to a hunting knife are miles away from those that apply to a khukuri....you can't and shouldn't really compare the two. The comments that I have posted are not philosophical, prejudiced, nor generalized for all knives - they are khukuri-specific, based on experience with testing, tearing apart, destroying, rebuilding, and now creating khukuris of my own.

The more I do, the more I learn. This is all valuable input and information, though. Thanks for starting the discussion.

 

[Jebadiah_Smith]

Yvsa,

I sure do agree a good stick can more than hold its own against a full tang. Its a sealed unit, resistant to the elements, and is buffeted by the strength of the handle material. I guess I just think a full tang is more "foolproof".

If the discussios is just limited to khukuris, well, there just isnt much to fuss over since all my favorite models come with sticks anyhow.

But if our discussion is about all knives, then khuk measurements dont really apply, and each maker will have his own style. Dan, youre very right about khuk principals not applying to all knives. Puukkos are some of my favorite knives and they arent hindered in the least by being stick tangs.

This all really should have been in a "tangs" thread shouldnt it?

 

[ddean]

Great discussion!

But let's not forget this is a DoD thread.

So far I see "Jange, Kothimoda and Seax gone."
& no "Emails sent"

Might be a good deal still waiting here..........


~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<>call me 'Dean' -FYI-FWIW-IIRC-JMO-M2C-YMMV-TIA-YW-GL-HH-HBD-IBSCUTWS-TWotBGUaDUaDUaD
<> Tips <> Baha'i Prayers Links--A--T--H--D

 

[Shann]

email sent regarding WWII.

(I put all the info in the email, this is my "first time" so I hope I did it right!