YCS by Kesar, Initial Impressions

Roadrunner

Roadrunner

Joined
Jun 9, 1999
Messages
4,729
Just got my YCS in the mail today, it's absolutely amazing how quickly it came. That's the second time I recieved a khuk I wasn't even getting impatient for yet. My impressions and a little bit of testing:

This is a very beautiful knife. The fullers give it a very light and balanced feel. I'm with Walosi on the inlays, they're about as advertised. Not flawless, but pretty all the same. The handle fits my hand better than any other khuk I've gotten out of the box, although I do wish it were a bit longer. The ring in the handle is very well done, it doesn't dig into my palm like others have. The tools are nicely done, but for some reason it appears to have two kardas and no chakma. Not a big deal, since the karda can easily fill in for a chakma. The steel fittings are very nicely done, I wouldn't mind having a few more khuks with the steel fittings. The blade is exceptionally broad, which I could see from the pictures, but I was surprised at how thin and sharp the edge was. The blade has a very thick spine, but the fullers make the edge very thin.

I'm not too impressed with the sheath, to be honest. It doesn't hold the tools or the knife very securely; one of the holes for the karda is very loose and lets it fall out much too easily. I can't jam it in far enough to get a good friction fit because there's a nailhead in there that it hangs up on. I know better now than to shove too hard, I beat up the handles of the tools that came with my GS that way last year. The chape also is kind of rough; you can see the hammer marks on it pretty clearly. It seems to be very tough though.

Now on to a little chopping. The first thing I tried to chop was a small dead tree, about seven inches in diameter. It's been dead a while, most of the bark has already come off. On the first few chops the blade sank in very deeply due to the extremely thin edge. It was sticking a little, so I torqued the blade a bit when pulling it out so it would dislodge a bit easier. When I stopped to look at the edge after a few chops, I was shocked to see that the edge had started to roll pretty badly, right on the curve of the belly. The first roll was about 3/8" long, and quite deep. I chopped a few more times and torqued the blade a little harder to see if it would roll more, and now the edge is waving all over the place like a crepe streamer. If I hold it out with the spine down and look along the edge, I can see that it's rippled back and forth about four or five times. It only took me about three minutes of chopping to produce this damage, and I think that if I had kept going and done any more torqueing on the edge that it would have started to tear apart, or the edge would have rippled so much that it would be unusable. The worst spot is nearly 3/4" long and the deformity extends into the blade about 1/4". It's rolled over so far that the edge is at about a 30 degree angle to the rest of the blade.

I stopped chopping there since it seemed pretty obvious what was going to happen. I seem to be having sort of bad luck with HI blades lately. My question is if that sort of behavior is to be expected. I really doubt it, but I've never had a YCS before so I'm not sure. Perhaps the designer of the blade could say what the original intent was? Thanks for reading everyone.
 
I think somewhere Bro cautioned about torqueing the YCS when chopping because of the thin edge on it but I'm not sure where.

Bottom line if you're not happy with this Kesar YCS send it back and I'll check the hardness on the blade. If it's too soft we'll sell the rig off at junk repair price. And, you can trade for something else or I'll send you a check.

Thanks for report from the field. Not always what we would like to see but that's what makes them valuable.
 
I'm sorry to hear of your problems. After 2 hours of hacking chopping, and just playing, I did not have the same experience. I was quite impresed with my karda and chakma, very sharp for the little knife. My hard use the khukhri never faltered. Perhaps there is more to the story, and things will be ok.
 
Thanks for the quick response Uncle Bill. I think that I'll take you up on the trade in offer. Do you have any Chitlangis, Sirupatis, or Kumar Kobras in stock? Please let me know what's available and I'll get this one back in the air ASAP.
 
Originally posted by Roadrunner
I stopped chopping there since it seemed pretty obvious what was going to happen.
I seem to be having sort of bad luck with HI blades lately. My question is if that sort of behavior is to be expected.
I really doubt it, but I've never had a YCS before so I'm not
sure.

Perhaps the designer of the blade could say what the original intent was? Thanks for reading everyone.
Click to expand...

I think somewhere Bro cautioned about torqueing the YCS when chopping because of the thin edge on it but I'm not sure where.
Click to expand...

The blade is too soft IMO. I cautioned about torqueing the blade because of possible breaking.
Again IMO had this knife of been properly hardened the edge would have broken out instead of rolling that way.

I prefer the older H.I.Khukuri's with the convexed edges just like an axe has. They also don't have the sticking in the work problems so many of the newer ones have it seems, at least my older ones don't hang up as bad as the newer ones.
They, the convexed edges, were harder to sharpen for some of the folks, but IMO they worried too much about getting the convexed edge right. Left alone and never studying or being told different the convexed edge just comes naturally.
There are no straight lines in nature.:)

Get the Chitlangi!!!!
You won't be a bit sorry.:D
 
Uncle Bill, please save a wood handled Chitlangi for me. I've been drooling over those pictures now for a while. Yvsa, thanks for the input. I agree completely, I'm also a fan of convex edges. This blade wasn't sticking too badly, but it would stick. I chopped the same tree a bit with my GS to get a basis for comparison and it wouldn't stick in the wood at all, and I actually swung it a bit harder. The YCS was taking bigger bites out while it was still cutting, but it wouldn't cut for long so it was sort of a moot point.
 
Might be too soft. We'll put the file to it and see what it tells us. But torqueing a thin edge scares me no matter what.
 
I'd agree with you about intentionally torqueing a thin edge, Uncle Bill and Yvsa. To be honest, I didn't really realize that I was torqueing the blade any until after it began to roll. My first thought was what could be causing it to roll like that, and after taking a few more chops and closely examining my technique I realized that I was torqueing the blade slightly when I removed it. I wasn't intentionally putting sideways stress on the blade, it's just part of my natural technique. Sorry about that, I just realized that I wasn't very clear on that part of the review. I made a point of mentioning the torqueing because I believe that it contributed to the rolling of the edge, but it wasn't intentionally or even very forcefully applied.
 
Originally posted by Roadrunner
I'd agree with you about intentionally torqueing a thin edge, Uncle Bill and Yvsa.

I wasn't intentionally putting sideways stress on the blade, it's just part of my natural technique.

Sorry about that, I just realized that I wasn't very clear on that part of the review.

I made a point of mentioning the torqueing because I believe that it contributed to the rolling of the edge, but it wasn't intentionally or even very forcefully applied.
Click to expand...

Roadrunner I wouldn't worry about it. One should normally be able to torque a khukuri, any khukuri unless of course it has a thin more hollow ground blade.
And it sounds from what you've described that the blade didn't "roll" as much as it deformed.
I've had a couple of the thinner edges break out on me due to being too hard, but only as much as about 3/16" deep and maybe an 1 1/4 or so long. Nothing I couldn't grind out and the steel is perfectly hardened beyond that point.
That's why I'm always afraid of torqueing an edge as if it does snap it could possibly throw a piece of the snapped off steel into one's body and that ain't no fun at all.:(

Torqueing a blade is part of my usual technique as well and Especially Khukuris!!!!.:)
Hay'ull, that's what they're made for ain't it?
 
Especially if the flying piece happens to land in an eye!!! And like the kamis of BirGorkha I hate to wear goggles when I work.

I think Kesar just lost it trying to make something so different from standard. Send these losers back and we'll sell them off as project knives.

I've sent email DEMANDING that Sanu make the YCS models and put Kesar back on standard models.
 
Thank you again Uncle Bill for your prompt response. I would be surprised, but I've seen how good you are before so I'm very happy, getting just the kind of service I expected. That's great that Sanu will be doing YCS's now, my GS is made by him and it's tough as nails! I was just clearing a trail with it today, in fact, it held it's edge quite well and really did a number on anything I chose to destroy with it :D . So don't sweat this little episode, you still have a loyal customer in me! I'd love nothing more than to finance the new factory myself with dozens of new khuks, but sadly the Army doesn't pay well enough for that.
 
I think I can hazard a guess at the problem. I expect most of you guys are way ahead of me, but in case there's anybody reading who's getting the impression from the problems with these YCS's that quality control at HI has just taken a nosedive, I'd like to offer an alternative explanation.

As we know, khuk blades are differentially tempered; the cutting edge is hardened while the body of the blade is left soft ('soft' is a relative term when talking about medium/high carbon steel...); this produces a combination of cutting/edgeholding and toughness that makes the khuk such an exceptional tool.

As far as I can tell from the pix on the HI site, the kami quenches the cherry-red steel by trickling water down the cutting edge. As the water hits the blade, it 'freezes' the crystalline structure of the steel in its hard (martensitic) state. But then some of the heat retained in the unquenched portion of the blade seeps back into the hardened area, thereby relieving the brittleness of the edge and imparting the essential qualities of flexibility; this is the process known as 'tempering'. Then more water is poured on, cooling the whole blade down and arresting the procedure when the tempering process reaches the optimum point. In Western blacksmithing, tempering is done by quenching the whole bade till it's cool all over, then reheating it. The Nepalese method cuts out a whole process, while producing an extremely efficient result.

Tempering is a compromise; apply too little heat, and the blade stays brittle; apply too much and the blade gets soft. My guess is that in the case of this YCS, Kesar may have waited too long before cooling the blade completely, thereby allowing the edge to get too soft.

We're talking about a matter of seconds here; and where the Western smith has external aids to help him judge the progress of the temper (he cleans up the blade before tempering so he can watch the oxidation colors in the steel - basically, when it turns purple or blue, quench it NOW...) the kamis look from the pix like they're judging the whole deal by eye and feel. How they can do that amazes me. It's a bit like being able to read a book with your eyes shut.

My theory is that the answer lies in the YCS having a thinner edge than most khuks; which means that when the heat seeps back into the hard-quenched edge, it has less metal to heat up, and so tempers the steel quicker, making it soft. I'm guessing that maybe Kesar, who apparently isn't used to making this pattern, is treating it like a khuk with a regular edge thickness, and leaving it a heartbeat or so too long before giving it the final quench. Hence the softness.

Easy to see why a guy would do that. If I was making a thin-edged blade this way, I'd be worried about making it too *hard* - because then it'll be brittle, and shatter like glass when whacked hard into a log or whatever. My instinct would be to err on the side of caution, give it that extra second or so before quenching, so as to make sure. A knife that bends is still more use than a knife that snaps like a carrot.

Khuks have been made with wide, cannel (convex) profile edges for centuries for a good reason; that's the way you profile a blade if you heat-treat it the way the kamis do. It's asking a lot of them to expect them to be able to reproduce the thin, flexible edge-profile that we're used to in the West, where we do heat treatment in a radically different way. While I really like the YCS as a piece of design, I can see what a burden making it places on a metalworker relying principally on instinct & experience to perform this crucial step. Experience of making thick cannel edges will only help you so far when you're making thin, flat ones.

What I'm leading up to is this; when we ask the guys at BirGhorka to make up knives to our designs, rather than the ones they were raised with, maybe we should be prepared to make allowances for the occasional failure. It's like asking a guy with a lifetime's experience driving cars to pilot a helicopter. The fact that they get it right most of the time on these experimental and (to them) unusual designs is, I think, a tremendous tribute to their skill & craftsmanship.
 
You don't know how thankful I am to have a smith who can write.

I voiced the same thoughts you had, Tom, in an email today but in more abbreviated terms.

Kesar is a good solid kami but he has trouble when he does anything but standard khukuris.
 
Originally posted by Tom Holt
Khuks have been made with wide, cannel (convex) profile edges for centuries for a good reason; that's the way you profile a blade if you heat-treat it the way the kamis do.

It's asking a lot of them to expect them to be able to reproduce the thin, flexible edge-profile that we're used to in the West, where we do heat treatment in a radically different way.

While I really like the YCS as a piece of design, I can see what a burden making it places on a metalworker relying principally on instinct & experience to perform this crucial step.

Experience of making thick cannel edges will only help you so far when you're making thin, flat ones.

What I'm leading up to is this; when we ask the guys at BirGhorka to make up knives to our designs, rather than the ones they were raised with, maybe we should be prepared to make allowances for the occasional failure.

It's like asking a guy with a lifetime's experience driving cars to pilot a helicopter.

The fact that they get it right most of the time on these experimental and (to them) unusual designs is, I think, a tremendous tribute to their skill & craftsmanship.
Click to expand...

Tom I agree whole heartedly with what you've said. I think the problem is here lately the khuks have started coming with thinner edges than they used to.
I've bitched about it and expressed my concerns before. The YCS was not designed with a western edge!!!! I know better than that.
The same thing happened with the first Cherokee Rose that Bura made, Bura's prototype of the Cherokee Rose had this same damned sorta hollow ground edge on it, and then Uncle Bill posted another knife as a joke and I went insane for a while. I'm still sorry about that and won't forget it soon as it was bad behavior on my part, no excuse because I was sick at the time.
Uncle Bill promised to do everything he could to get the Cherokee Rose made as it was designed and the last two that Sanu made are exactly like the model.
I did a mini test on them and had no problem at all with the edge!!!!

There was a discussion about sharpening a long while back and Ghostsix
told it as it is in saying, "Sharpen it like the axe that it is."
Ghostsix said it perfectly as that to me is the exact way to sharpen a khukuri.
The only difference that I know is that the khukuris are much softer than any khukuri I've tried to sharpen from H.I.:)

I just want to reinforce that I do agree with what Tom has said and I also think that this whole edge deal on the subject khuks was a
fluke.
Even with the thinner edges that H.I. has been getting from BirGhorka they're still unbeatable at the prices even when we have to pay full price instead of these extremely low prices everyone is enjoying lately.
There really hasn't been that many failures although I know Bro feels that one is too damned many.
I for one still think the problem is due to the modern equipement in the shop and that the kamis have figured out a quicker and easier way to do things.
It proves to me once again that quicker and easier isn't always the proper thing to do.:(
 
Tom and Yvsa have eloquently provided great insight on this edge problem. It causes me to have a greater appreciation for the khuks I am lucky enough to have. There is not a huge difference between my UBE and Chitlangi edge thickness and that of the soft YCS-like blade, but they are SO different in use. (These khuks have thinner edges than the others I have) It really made me realize that a khuk is a strange (to Western thinking) marriage of hard and soft steel achieved by pure experience and critical timing. Properly sharpening the convex edge of my first khuk was a struggle, it took me far too long to realize that it was like an axe, and that an axe could be shaving sharp. That quote should be in the FAQ! I think that if the kamis are asked to deviate too much from the thick knives with convex edges whose hardening behavior they so understand, that it could take a long, long, time for them to get the same consistent results that they now achieve. Room for error should be smaller. Like Clint says in the movie, " A man has to know his limitations". Being the best in the world within those limitations aint bad at all!! :)
Especially when such knives outchop most similarly weighted Western tools made in shops with immensely greater facilities.
I hope that the kamis know that. That's one reason why I bought a bunch of khuks in a couple of months.

Yvsa has a good point on the power tools. Doing more with them than would have been done by hand could upset a perfect balance that is the key to a great knife.


I now feel that the bent shape, cho, AND very importantly, the differentially hardended convex edge are what makes a khuk a khuk. And if I can figure out how to keep a sharp convex edge, anyone can.
 
I for one still think the problem is due to the modern equipement in the shop and that the kamis have figured out a quicker and easier way to do things. It proves to me once again that quicker and easier isn't always the proper thing to do
Click to expand...

first of all I'm weighing in on a topic that has been discussed by Uncle Bill(handled and used more khuks than anyone, and seen them made in person), Yvsa(career machinist and also a knife maker/talented craftsman) and Tom Holt(bladesmith--nuff said). My qualifications---none. Ok, now that I've shot myself in the foot:D

I agree with Tom because I know he knows more about blademaking than I'll ever know. It makes sense to me bacause we're seeing blade failures in non-traditional styles like he says. But I think Yvsa has a point in that the edges BG is now putting on khukuris are themselves non-traditional thus compounding the problem Tom described.

Again, if you've read any of my posts you know I'm one of HI's biggest fans. And I think that with proper hardening (which we ARE seeing in 99.9% of the cases) the concave edges will hold up well enough--though with more binding in the cut. I think that when BG relocates and is more stable things will return to normal on all counts, but for now the PGA's aren't too hard to take:D
 
Bro and I were talking at the convention about these things.

What the modern equipment has done is let us improve production dramatically which allowed us to lower our prices by about 1/3 in a world where price increases every year or six months are the norm.

Good example is the old bicycle chain driven grinder. It took two men a half day or more to get a knife from the forge to scabbard ready and even then the finish would be only fair. With the five or six electric motors we have in BirGorkha one man can do this job in 30 minutes. Another good example is drilling a handle. With the bow and string driven hand drill it would take two men two hours to drill a handle successfully. They would destroy 4 before they got one right. Now one man does this job in 3 minutes with an electric hand drill and he doesn't destroy any handles. The modern equipment is saving our customers a third on the cost of a knife and giving the knives a finish that rivals million dollar factory knives.

What we have sacrificed to achieve this much increased production is a different edge. There's pros and cons. One of the cons is the edge we now put on is not as strong as the old convex axe edge. But the normal failure rate in the field has been about one in 500. It's more than I want but it's a rate I can live with. Even with the half dozen recent edge failures which I blame more on Kesar than edge geometry the failure rate is now maybe one in 495 -- not what I want but still acceptable to most.

But the buck stops right here. I didn't do my job properly. With Vikash gone our staff has been reduced by 1/3 and it hurts. Yangdu and I are now working 7 days a week some days 12 hours trying to keep up and I ran out of time. I should have checked the blades for hardness before I sent them into the field but just didn't take the time because I need a little time for my Heineken and nickle video poker. All work and no play makes Uncle Bill want to hang it all up and "really" retire and that I am not willing to do right now. I can't tolerate the thought of what would happen to the kamis and their families. So, I have to juggle things and we all have to pay for this.

The Buddhists call it dharma.
 
I'm reluctant to disagree with Uncle Bill & others, who probably know a helluva lot more than I do about how stuff is made at BirGhorka; but I find it hard to see how power tools such as the electric bench grinders could have contributed to the 2 or 3 cases of edge softness we've had lately. My guess is that these problems are flukes, compounded by the fact that the blades in question were non-traditional designs.

Yes, you can screw up the temper of a blade with a bench grinder. You press too hard for too long; the edge turns blue and goes soft. Easy done. Done it myself. But when it happens, it's very obvious; and you grind off the 'feather' (to prevent burning) put the blade back in the fire and do the heat treatment stage again. Craftsmen like the HI guys would never send out a blade they know has gone soft.

As I've said before, I feel that we're making demands on the kamis, with the designs that we're asking them to make, that increase the risk of the (very occasional) failure - and if we want our hybrid innovative khuks, we have to make allowances. Above all, we should be in no doubt on one point in particular; *it's nobody's fault*. Not Bill's, not the smith's, not the tools', not even ours (for wanting that special blade of our dreams). It's just the way of fire and steel. Speaking purely personally, I wouldn't object at all if Bill said that the 100% HI guarantee didn't apply to special order & custom items that are materially different to the traditional khukuri; and I'm sure that Yvsa and the others who've created some outstanding new designs in recent years would see the justice in this. We know that the guys at BirGhorka will do the very best they can for us. As far as I'm concerned, that's guarantee enough for me.

As for the power tools; I'm completely spoilt. I have bench grinders, angle grinders, an electric blower, a belt grinder, a lathe and a mill - I even have the use of my buddy's power hammer, which is an incredible saver of tedious, gruelling labor. I'm not inclined to begrudge these wonderful inventions to anybody else.

I think it's wonderful that Bill and HI have taken the innovative step of combining the traditional techniques with a few modern conveniences, and thereby brought prices down. It benefits everybody. More power (in both senses) to their elbows!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top