yeah, so this is what happened tonight...

J

Jadis

Joined
Oct 2, 1998
Messages
438
so I had gotten off work tonight, and was waiting inside the bus shelter. No one was around, and these 2 guys come up to the shelter talking to each other. So the bigger of the 2 guys says to me something like "monjoo". I say "pardon?". He repeats it several more times, each time I'm staring at him having no idea what the heck he is saying. I ask him "are you asking me a question?", he repeats "monjoo". Then he says "do you speak french?", I say "yes". Then says "monjoo", so it clicks for me, and I go "oh! bonjour! You should say bonsoir, it's night time" kind of jokingly. (I guess I couldn't get past his Caribean accent). He doesn't smile, and I should mention that his whole demeanor this whole time was less than friendly. He starts making conversation with me (not exactly friendly conversation) asking me where you from?, I say "montreal" (this is happening in Ottawa). He asks "you go to Carleton University?", I respond yes, asks me what I'm studying, I say "computer science"...etc, I'm just answering his questions as briefly as possible, because the whole thing felt weird, the way he spoke, body language...I was starting to think he might mug me or something like that. I was just answering like "yeah" "yup" "uh-huh". He goes, "yeah, I was just in Montreal today, was in Old Montreal, you know the old buildings, all the art stuff there..but I guess you don't know about that stuff, you just do mind things, figure things out, you being in science...". I go "yeah, sure", knowing full well he's trying to insult me. Meanwhile, I'm thinking "crap, there's two of them, and I'm stuck in the bus shelter, and he's standing near the only exit/entrance" I had my new mini stryker (which I had just gotten today) clipped in my front pocket jeans. I wanted to move my hand to it, so I could get a quick draw if I needed to, but it would have been really obvious, I didn't want him to know (if he was really planning on attacking me). btw, I was sitting down... So I remember my regular carry, my 850 Pardue, which I had put in my back pocket (it's usually in the front "watch pocket"). So I slowly/casually reach behind and take it out, palming it,and then putting my hand in my jacket pocket, hand on stud and ready to draw... Meanwhile he's talking away, and I'm still going "yeah...uh-huh...yup" while thinking of what to do if these guys try something (my first thought was how I could run away, but i couldn't). I also slowly stand up casually, cause I don't want to be sitting if he jumps me...So fortunately, some people start coming to the bus stop, and the guy forgets about me and starts talking to the other guy. I'm like "phew.."

So do you think I was being paranoid or what?

Also, now I'm thinking if I should even carry my knife in the front pocket...the mini stryker was totally useless just because of that. It was just a coincedence that I was carrying two knives today, because I wanted to play with my new stryker... I mean, the only real reason I carry my Pardue is to make Banana splits and Banana Royales and Smoothies (I work at Baskin Robins, yes, come to my Baskin Robins and you can have your stuff cut with REAL knives hehe). So maybe I should start to carry at least two knives now. (well I do, but the spyderco ladybug is too deadly for use). So what do you think of front carry? Is it bad for defence situations? I sure think so now...especially since most attackers won't tackle you right away, they usually come up walking or talking menacingly first...and am I just being paranoid?




 
Jad...

you have asked me why I carry so much.

Ora capite? * sorriso *
 
DC, I was making fun of you, so what else is new?
smile.gif

 
Jadis,
I prefer front carry. I usually carry 2 knives in the front pockets when I wear jeans or IWB with other trousers. You can hook your thumbs in the pocket or belt/waistband and are "quick on the draw" (right phrase ?) with or without knife if the need arises.
But I think there are a lot of different opinions about it.
Take care and a nice weekend,
Frank
 
To answer your question, you're not paranoid if they're really out to get you. But, in this case I guy was talking to you at a bus stop and it happened to be at night... You make the call!

Rob.
 
Well, maybe you are being paranoid as I've noted that a lot of mainland people (I'm from Hawaii) are just plain rude, they have this attitude or something. But, good thing you had something on you that was accesible. My knives are in clipped in right front pocket, one in left pocket (not clipped), one in coin pocket, one clipped in small of back and thats usually it. But in your situation it was lucky you could reach the Pardue. I also sometimes carry an Executive Edge knife, looks like a pen in your shirt pocket but has a very sharp blade and is good for a neck or facial slash. And sometimes some kind of neck knife, you could always pretend to be scratching your stomach or something when you reach under your shirt.
 
Jadis,
Forget the "paranoid" and concentrate on "prepared".

Debrief the situation and learn from it. Should you have gone into an empty bus shelter at nite? Should you have timed it so you'd have spent less time waiting for the bus? Should you have been sitting? Should your knife have been in your palm before they entered? Should you have put your hand in your jacket pocket or down by your leg? Should you consider my favorite of legal weapons, the fighting cane (thank you Mad Dog)?

I'm not saying you did anything different from what I might have done. But you were definitely bitten by the Condition White Bug, as all of us are from time to time.
Glad you're OK.
Rich Lucibella
 
Jadis,

Be prepared. We have instincts for a reason, listen to them. Trust yourself, don't
second guess yourself.

One of my favorite mottos is, "Tis' better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six".

I can say that when the "fight or flight" instinct is aroused, we need to be in a position where we can use either.

Apply some tactical sense before hand; ensure that you can fly, if needed.

I hope this helps.

Paul
 
Jadis, There is a big difference between being paranoid or [shall we say] overzealous,
and being aware of your surroundings and being prepared to react to defend yourself quickly. It can not be a pleasant experience if you find yourself in a position requiring you to use a weapon, but not having a means of defense or being unaware of a threat could result in a much more unpleasant experience. Even though the situation turned out ok last night, (am I am very glad it did) how would you have felt in the situation with less or no means to defend yourself? The thought might be used as a response to the paranoid question.

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 10-24-98).]
 
I second the motion for the "instinct" part. It's not everyday, nor with everyone, that I get "creepy" feelings from people. Anytime I get that funny feeling, I'm in condition orange. My mind is already in fight mode, and my body/hands are generally already on some tools or in some subtle defensive position. As it has already been emphasized, it doesn't hurt to be prepared.

On the outside, however, I try to verbally de-escalate the situation by politely pardoning myself, smiling, and move away. I keep my eyes locked on the target (actually, it'll do that by itself if you're in fight mode anyways). I don't know why, but regardless of what you say or how you smile, generally your eyes tell will others that you're determined to fight. This is something that can't be faked.

As for knife carry positions, for years, I carried my folder in the front pocket. Since then, I moved them to my back pocket, mainly because it was far more useful to use my front pocket for bulky gear (such as the cellphone and pepper spray for example).

Tactically, there is no such thing as a fast-deploying manual folder. Even autos are no exception. So I see almost no point whether my knives are clipped in the front or the back pocket. If you want fast-deploying knives, carry fixed-blades (Again, I would, but my state won't allow it.
frown.gif
) So, to me, there's no point leaving it and end up obstructing the front pockets.

[This message has been edited by SB (edited 10-28-98).]
 
IMHO, speed of deployment is directly related to amount of concealment. I have been strapping on fixed blades (as well as guns etc...) of all varieties for quite a while now and getting very creative with the carry modes. In order to properly conceal a fixed blade (FB) for daily wear with no worries of it being seen during normal active daily movement, it often times can end up getting covered up with so much clothing and sheathing that it becomes a lot slower to get to than to deploy a folder. Many FB rigs require two handed approach to pull back clothing etc or pull off the sheath. I agree that in essence FB's are faster and a bit better, but a blanket statement that FB's are always fast is not correct. I have a great appreciation for FB's, but there is a time and advantage to both. It is more to do with how you strap the thing on, (your conceal carry method), than the knife, per se. I can draw and slice with my AFCK from my pocket or waistband a lot faster than I can do the same with a neck knife or well concealed (read: covered by clothing) sheath knife, and I can also do it exclusively with *one hand* as opposed to the two hands it takes to draw from many of the methods of FB concealed carry. This does not take into account the fact that you can palm a folder...and I do that extremely often....

Anyway, back to the topic:
Jadis, "paranoid" is not even a reasonable word to use, you are so far from it. The behavior exhibited was classic "sizing up" that precludes a mugging or other crime. I have been victim to this experience yadda yadda yadda, and the odds that you were *not* in danger are very slim. Something must have thrown them off and they aborted their mission. Perhaps they sensed on you that you were about to fillet them, or maybe the people came along and screwed up the plan. It would be my guess though that at some point there you were in real danger and I would have to wonder about you if you did *not* get a bit nervous in a situation like this.

thaddeus
 
Thad:

I'm rather embarrassed now. I should've known better than to make blanket statements.
wink.gif
Anyways, you're right and I take it back.

But here's the thing though: Folders have one extra step that FBs don't have and that's opening the blade. In an ideal situation, yes, opening a folder is almost instantaneous. But realistically, if the BG jumps you, things can get so hairy that you may not be able to get it open at all.

From a slightly different perspective, if you compare both types of blades on equal footing, the FB will beat the folder in draw-time and deployment reliability just about any day of the week. This is true even when palming a folder as opposed to palming a FB.

On the street, yes, what really matters is to have a knife and have it ready when you need it. Therefore, all knife types and deployment methods are fair game. But even then, don't you find it rather unsettling if a FB should take longer to deploy than a folder? Sure, it's okay if it's deep-concealment because it can't be helped or if it's a back-up. But if it's your PDW, I say it's time to either refine the system or find a better one.

I'm not trying to seem contrary. I completely agree with everything you said. And normally I'd leave it at that, but in my personal experience, when done right, a PDW FB really is consistently faster than a folder. I know so because I rigged a FB of mine in such a way that it is not only lightning fast, but is extremely natural, not conspicuous at all AND only requires only one hand. I hope you can understand if I feel a little uncomfortable going into details in public about it. It's nothing great, but it works great, so I know such a thing is possible.

[This message has been edited by SB (edited 10-28-98).]
 
I am a bit surprised at how you folks are placing one method above another. We should all know by now that there is no one tool/weapon for every occasion/attack. If there was everyone would be toting it. Like so many other things it is a matter of personal prefence and comfort.

As for the matter of feeling boxed-in in a volatile situation not knowing how to get to your weapon of choice, worse comes to worse, keys on a keyring, a pen/pencil in your pocket, or even a direct blow to the crotch, Whatever it takes to defuse a hostile situation, or to at least escape it.

Just my two cents worth.

Jonathan
 
Jonathan,

I agree that there is no better plan that another. What matters most, I think, is actually *HAVING* a plan. Each of us must decide how to use what we have, and the best way for us as individuals to carry it out.

We can certainly get ideas from each other, but what it comes down to is how prepared we are, and how well thought out (in advance), our plan is.

I don't mean the "You talkin' to me?" routine in front of the mirror, but actually experimenting with quick draws from different positions. The practice, too, will help.

Preparation is not just posession. It's got to include practice, as well as maintaining the correct mental attitude at all times.

Paul
 
I do agree with much of what has been said, in this situation allowing my self to be in that situation would be in violation of a basic, never enter a situation with out assement of available escape routes and make shift tools. (chairs, rolled up newspapers, magizenes, garbage can.) Yea I feel paranoid and some times waste 30 sec to 2 min when entering a resturant, club, sporting event or even air port, but the one time it isn't done may be the time it's needed. The other side of the coin when working live rock and roll security about 10 years ago the same applies to the druken and spaced out partyers, what might they be in contact with or able to conceal? The silly little things like never sitting with one's back to the door or window and crossing one's legs when sitting, get tiresome if not detracting from the possibility of having a good time where ev er I may be, but when milliseconds count, who knows what edge may deside the out come. Also I have a habit of carrying a halligen kiss on my key ring, and they are always in my hand. MIke
 
Jadis: I find carrying your pocket knife diagonally in your pocket will allow you much more freedom to draw and replace it when sitting. I used to carry in the standard "horizontal" position (ie clip pointing straight down) but found it would poke me or sometimes pop out of my pocket. I spend alot of time sitting (at a workbench or driving to a site) and my knife is my most used tool, so I need to get it in and out with ease.

A. Dale McLean
<A HREF="http://www.nt.net/~admclean/Index.htm" TARGET="_blank" >ADaM Sharps Cutlery - Canadian Knife Dealer</A>
 
Jadis, you made prep moves without alerting them to your weapon and scaring them if they're actually legit or "triggering the confrontation" if they're not.

That's good, really good. One of the places I always have a folder or better is front-pocket. "Better" sometimes means mousegun, for me personally. In a case like this, if it's cold out you can do a "rub the hands together and shiver" thing and then pocket them, aquiring the grip and getting ready for rapid deploy out of the strong-side pocket.

Anyways. Remember too that if you don't have time to deploy a folder, use it CLOSED as if it was a Kubaton or the tactically similar mini-maglight. Take at least a day-long class in the use of either, so you can wield a folder as a fast pummeling weapon, making space to bring the blade to bear.

JM
 
have a folder that you can snap out the blade if need be that you can palm inconspicously. in a parking lot or walking at night anywhere i usauly have my cs 4" tanto vayager in my hand thumb on the stud. i may go bach to my benchmade 975 becayse with a flick of my hand that beast could be open. find a folder that fits your hand very confortably and practice with it until you can manipulate it 70 ways from sunday. then when out of the house have it in your hand.
if you already have it ready they being supprised is not as bad as with empty hand.
 
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