Yet another Bear thread - two campers become bear food

Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
The bear looks bigger than it really is because the hunter is a fair bit behind the bear and this gives a skewed perspective. Let me tell you one thing, when you run into a 700 lb grizzly you tend to think it looks a whole lot bigger than that.
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I thought it might be perspective too.
No argument here on the second point either.
 
Originally posted by Runs With Scissors
Am I being too nasty here, or is there anyone else that positively cringes when they see this clown referred to as a "Bear Expert"??

What kinda "Bear Expert" handfeeds bears, tries to pet them, approaches mama bear and cubs, and refers to bears as "party animals"?

Had he acknowledged the bears were WILD animals, not to be confused with PARTY animals, he might not be facing the celestial challenge that he faces today, or....am I being too jaded an' nasty here? :confused:
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Not at all. Leave no trace, could be applied here. His interference with the bears existence was unprofessional. No one here wishes what happened on anyone, especially on his lady friend, but maybe someone else who had an "aren't they cute" notion of bears will be alive because of what happened and the ensuing discussion.
 
Yep, from what I've been able to gather, Magnum slugs in 12ga shotguns are the way to go. I'm headin up to Alaska before long & was lookin at .44 magnums at Sportsman's Warehouse when the guy next to me said "I was on a fishing trip with my friend & he was charged by a brown bear. He shot it 6 time with his .44 , did a quick reload with the speedloader & it dropped on the 10th shot. Said he was saving the 12th round for himself." This guy was buying one of the Remington self defence shotguns that hold the xtra rounds, and said that was the only way to go. I think he's right. Not just for the killing power, but for your ability to AIM at the monster comin at ya at 35 or 40 mph... Gotta get one of those Remingtons.
 
This is an article written by Chuck Hawks .

Grizzly, Brown and Polar Bear Cartridges

By Chuck Hawks
The great bears of North America are the largest land predators on earth. Grizzly and brown bears are actually the same species, the distinction between the two being geographic rather than genetic. The great bears of the Alaskan coastal region are called brown bears; inland they become grizzly bears.

The average female grizzly bear weighs about 400 pounds and the average male about 700 pounds. The famous salmon fed male brown bears of Alaska's Kodiak Island might run 1000 pounds and in extreme cases can weigh as much as 1600 pounds. Male polar bears average about 900 pounds live weight. Very large individuals can reach 1100 pounds, and in extreme cases males can weigh as much as 1550 pounds and females as much as 900 pounds. For all of these figures I am indebted to the research conducted and published by Edward A Matunas in the 47th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook.

When you realize that the average male Jaguar of South America weighs about 200 pounds, the average adult male African lion weighs about 350 pounds and an adult Bengal tiger might weigh 400 pounds, the massive size of the great North American predators is brought into chilling perspective. In the days before the white man decimated the bison of the North American plains, grizzly bears regularly preyed upon these massive bovines!

While .30-30 and 6.5x55 caliber rifles have felled large numbers of these monsters, such feats were usually performed by explorers, residents of the far north, and indigenous substance hunters. In much the same way, the Maasi tribesmen of Africa traditionally killed lions with a spear. But modern sportsmen are best served by something other than a spear, a .30-30, or a 6.5x55 when hunting the great predators of Africa, North America, and the Arctic.

The great bears have thick fur, tough skin, heavy bones, and very strong muscles. Premium, controlled expansion bullets are the medicine of choice. The Nosler Partition bullet, for example, has been a favorite of experienced Alaskan hunters for decades.

The minimum recommended calibers for all of the great bears are the .30-06 Springfield with 180 grain (SD .271) to 220 grain (SD .331) bullets, and any of the standard length 7mm Magnum cartridges with 175 grain (SD .310) bullets. In addition to the .30-06, other suitable standard cartridges include the .338-06 A-Square and .35 Whelen, both with 225 to 250 grain bullets.

The most recommended calibers are the standard length and long .300 Magnums with 180 to 220 grain bullets, 8mm Magnums with 200 grain (SD .274) to 220 grain (SD .301) bullets, .338 Magnums with 225 grain (SD .281) to 250 grain (SD .313) bullets, .35 caliber Magnums with 250 grain (SD .279) bullets, and .375 Magnums with 270 grain (SD .274) to 300 grain (SD .305) bullets.

Seldom encountered in North America, but perfectly suitable, are the powerful European 9.3mm (.366") calibers. These include the 9.3x62, 9.3x64, and 9.3x74R with 270 grain (SD .288) or heavier bullets. In the same general class is the much newer .376 Steyr with 270 to 300 grain bullets.

The .30-06 and the 7mm Magnums offer muzzle energy (ME) in the vicinity of 3000 ft. lbs. and up. The highly recommended .300 Magnum and medium bore calibers offer ME figures from about 3400 ft. lbs. to about 4400 ft. lbs.

Any rifle more powerful than a .375 H&H Magnum (ME 4200-4400 ft. lbs.) is getting into the overkill area even for the great bears. No hunter pursuing dangerous game should saddle him or her self with a rifle so much more powerful than required that it induces flinching or reduces the chances of accurate bullet placement. As always, bullet placement is the key to killing power. A 180 grain bullet from a .30-06 in a vital spot will drop the biggest Kodiak brown bear in Alaska, while a bullet from a .458 Magnum in the guts is an invitation to disaster. Every hunter owes it to himself, the game animal, and innocent bystanders to use a rifle in a caliber that he can consistently shoot accurately.

That said, for those who can control their massive recoil, big bore rifles from .40 to .45 caliber using bullets with sectional densities similar to those mentioned above can be used to deadly effect on the great bears. These would include such diverse calibers as the .450/400 NE, .400 H&H Magnum, .404 Jeffery, .416 Taylor, .416 Rigby, the various .416 Magnums, .450 Marlin, .45-70 (in rifles capable of withstanding high pressure handloads), .450 NE, .458 Winchester Magnum, .458 Lott, and .460 Weatherby Magnum.

In a recent survey it was revealed that the most popular caliber with Alaskan professional hunters and guides responsible for "backing-up" their clients was the .338 Winchester Magnum. With typical factory loads using 225 to 250 grain premium bullets the .338 Win. Mag. has a ME of about 3860-4046 ft. lbs. and a maximum point blank range (+/- 3") of about 270 yards. These can be taken as ideal ballistics for hunting any of the great bears. Recoil energy runs about 34 ft. lbs. in an 8.5 pound rifle.

While grizzly, brown and polar bears have been killed at very short range and very long range, the preferred range is between 50 and 150 yards (or meters, if you prefer). This is close enough to allow accurate bullet placement and far enough to allow time for follow-up shots if required.

In closing I can only reiterate that while a rifle of adequate power is important when hunting any of the great bears, accurate bullet placement is absolutely paramount. We are talking about animals that can (literally) kill the biggest African lion with a single swipe of a paw. Predators so massive and deadly cannot be taken lightly. Hunters must be completely confident of their ability to put the first bullet where it will do the most good!
 
Friends, there are a lot of "what if's?" in your'e artillery arguments. Some shotgun slugs, like the Brenekke, have very deep penetration, while others, like the Winchester Super Slug, will usually expand too much and stop on a broadside shot on a 100 pound whitetail doe. Same goes for rifles. A Nosler Partition or Winchester Failsafe out of A .270 will penetrate to the vitals much better than regular cup and core bullets out of a monster magnum. Placement is everything, with penetration not far behind. Muzzle energy dosen't have much to do with it. As often said "A knife through the heart is worth more than 10,000 foot pounds in the ass.
 
Penetration and range is the key. Peter Chapstick had a few interesting anadotal stories about rifle calibers and hunting. He mentioned that one local farmer had managed to kill a full grown elephant with a .22Lr. The guy had been out hunting small game and had inadvertently hit an elephant in the background; only to see the thing drop like a rock. Chapstick speculated that the animal may have died from the shock, or perhaps the miniscule round had blocked a key artery. He also had another story about a hunter that managed to down sevaral elephants with one shot. He shot and killed one; which then fell off a ridge and landed on another, which then rolled into others precipitating a avalance.

You can certainly take large game with small rounds; however, when the beast is aggressive and coming at me, I would rather not worry about shot placement, or luck. I going to take whatever shot I can, and I want a rifle that can blow its brains out even if I have to shoot it in the a$$. Throphy hunting is one thing, self defense is something else entirely. You want a maximum amount of damage and neatness need not apply.

n2s
 
On Mr. Bear Food's web site, his first "bear safety" tip:

"People should remain 100 yards from bears at all times."

Well, HE'S THE EXPERT... :rolleyes: (Or rather, WAS the expert.)

On his "farewell recording," the attack was captured on, Mr. B. Food was admonished by his apprentice bear-snack partner to "play dead." He then begged her to "hit the bear." And this from a guy who didn't want to carry bear spray? Well, as he was being eaten to death, he finally made up his mind about hurting the poor creatures. I bet if he'd had a "Saturday Night Special Assault Weapon" during the attack, he would've used it!



And yeah, "Capstick," Peter Capstick...:D A guy who didn't carry bear spray for another reason: he had other tools.

Karl
 
I absolutly agree that if you have a angry Grizzly at halitosis distance that you want the biggest rifle that you can handle. But the fact remains that if you don't get an adequate amount of lead into the right spot you are in for it. A shot through the gut(or butt) with a .375 H&H probably won't do any more to shut him down than an '06 with the same shot would. At the distances involved in a true self defence encounter with a bear, I would imagine that if he he stays mobile for more than a few seconds, your'e in for a bad day. Big gun or little gun, close or far, you have to hit them in the right spot. But like I said at the beginning, I most definetly would want my old .375 if I found myself in that sort of situation. Just my opinion.
 
You guys keep forgetting the trusty 45/70 round out of a Marlin Guide gun (reasonable $$$) or one of Wild West's Alaskan Co-Pilots (big $$$). These suckers can toss a 500+ grain slug at close to 2000 FPS. Just what one needs for close bear protection. Garret and Buffalo Bore make some great dangerous game rounds.

KS
 
I had a Guide Gun in 45/70 for awhile and thought quite well of it. I was shooting 400 grain cast bullets at around 1800fps, if memory serves. I didn't find the recoil so bad but the only thing that I hated about the rifle was the muzzle ports. Those things really scream at you! I have been kicking around the idea of getting a regular 1895 Marlin and if I don't like the longer barrel, I can always have the spout whacked off. Other than the ports though, I fond little to not like about the piece. Oh yea, and that annoying, designed by lawyers crossbolt saftey. But other than those personal gripes, It is an excellent rifle.
 
The new Guide Guns come without the silly porting. :) But it really is the perfect rifle for bear country and close in dangerous work.


KS
 
sounds to me like the guy was doing everything to get attacked. Why do the bears have to have a reason to attack? We are just food to them, slower and not as strong as other things they might eat. If i were in bear country i would take the 45/70 marlin as well. short and light. I wouldn't hang around bears that are feeding or with thier cubs or at all for that matter.
 
That is excellent news Kaiser Sosa. Good movie by the way. I also had a couple of friends, one with a 45/70, and the other with a 450 Marlin, and their dislike of the ports were the same as mine. I might have to go shopping next week. It really would be a superb weapon for dangerous game country. I have heard that they are in wide use in Africa with Pro hunters, with the caveat that they are fed Garret or handloaded ammunition. With the ease of handling (they handle almost like a quail gun), the power and penetration they offer (with proper ammo), and their fast repeat shot capability, I can see why.
 
had a friend that went pig hunting in Georgia killed i think 6 with the marlin 45/70. He got through and through shots on all the pigs and each one dropped in its place. Not sure what the longest shot was, im thinking it was 300+ yards w/ a 4 power.
 
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