Yet another man vrs. animal thread

munk said:
Ibear's Back!!! Alright. This is my friend, Ibear, everyone, he's a good guy.





munk
Click to expand...
Ibear's Back!!! Alright. This is my friend, Ibear, everyone, he's a good guy.


THANKS!
 
Of course, anything is possible......and it is a wild animal, after all. Catch a chipmunk, squirrel or racoon and I can almost guarantee it will bite the hell out of you.

OTOH, I have a great interest in wolves and have read everything I can get my hands on (in excess of 30 books) and according to these sources there has never been a DOCUMENTED attack on record, in this country, of a nonrabid, wild wolf (Call of the Wild, not withstanding) ;) . I've seen similiar, matching info regarding wolves in Europe and Asia.

The only documented attacks have been by "tame" wolves and dog/wolf hybrids, owned by ignorant people who think it's cool to own them. It is possible that the wolf, if it was a wolf, was previously kept as a pet and, like many wild animals, that have been kept in captivy, has lost it's fear of humans. It could also have been a hybrid, many of which have temperaments that are not like wolf or dog. It's even conceivable that it was a large husky of some type, many of which are virtually indistinguisable from wolves, in appearance. Especially in the heat of an attack such as this......and by people who have never seen a wolf except on TV, a dog could easily been mistaken for a wolf.

This wolf, if it was a wolf, may, in fact, be crazy, and I'm not saying it didn't happen because I wasn't there. However, if history is any indication, it is highly unlikely.

I also have my doubts that, if this was an adult wolf, which can pull down an adult deer or elk, alone, not in a pack......multiple layers of clothing would not have been protection enough to have resulted in only bruises....... and not broken skin. I have been involved in wolf rehabilition/release programs and I have seen these animals use their jaws to crack a roadkill deer's hipbone. (Shutter)

Besides, I wouldn't believe anything that I read in a publication that provides a teaser story and then wants 10 bucks to read the story in it's entireity. :grumpy: :barf: Here is Free Republic's $10 article for free:
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1314701/posts

My 2 cents. John in Boise
 
The attacks in India were in the 90's and featured on many programs, including the learning and discovery channels. How long have your 'documented ' cases been kept? 1909 or so? Wolves were nearly gone and afraid of man by the time reliable record keeping could be done.

I don't believe every Russian novelist since Dostoyekski is wrong about wolves.

MPO - they used to say similar things about MT Lions but have toned that down due spate of recent attacks. Give wolves more time it 'come back' in the lower 48 and see what happens.

The only good wolf is a rug- or in Alaska.i

munk
 
In Oregon we have had a few mountain lions getting very close to town. One even snatched a cat off a back porch in Astoria. IN Astoria, not outside of. I think there was a black bear that got in some town too. This can probably be directly related to the no hunting with dogs law that was passed a few years ago. Of course not all are informed of this law as I have hear first-hand accounts of hunting with dogs.
 
I'm not really against wolves, but our breeding pack numbers were grotesquely minimized by the environmental pressure groups. We can not affort roving packs of Land Sharks today- there are no unbroken expanses of wilderness . They do go on spree killings and do predate lifestock. Give them enough time to overun the limited natural wilderness areas, and there will be child predation.



munk
 
munk said:
The attacks in India were in the 90's and featured on many programs, including the learning and discovery channels. How long have your 'documented ' cases been kept? 1909 or so? Wolves were nearly gone and afraid of man by the time reliable record keeping could be done.

I don't believe every Russian novelist since Dostoyekski is wrong about wolves.

MPO - they used to say similar things about MT Lions but have toned that down due spate of recent attacks. Give wolves more time it 'come back' in the lower 48 and see what happens.

The only good wolf is a rug- or in Alaska.i

munk
Click to expand...

I didn't say that there were NO documented cases, ANYWHERE in the world. I said that there are none in this country. These attacks in India happened under very specific and unusual circumstances. There are almost always explanations for the attacks that do occur. One study calls it "highly modified environments". The vast majority of the attacks in India (76) were perpetrated by ONE wolf. There are exceptions and crazies in every species (especially ours) and, undoubtedly they HAVE been wolf attacks thoughout history, that were "undocumented". That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But, without question, attacks are very rare. I intuitively know that you are probably not interested in facts......but, just in case:

Quote from:
© 1995-2004
International Wolf Center
Teaching the
World about Wolves
1396 Highway 169
Ely, MN 55731-8129
218-365-4695
www.wolf.org

"Our study suggests that in areas where there is high human density (> 600 km2) of low economic status, with little wild prey, and with livestock populations that are heavily guarded, wolves could potentially attack children. Radio-telemetry data from three different regions in western India suggests that wolves come into contact with humans very often. It would be extremely easy for wolves to attack children in these areas. However, no authentic reports of wolf attacks on humans are available from these regions in spite of these areas having high wolf densities. Our data suggests that attacks on children are exceptionally rare in comparison to the opportunities for attacks available to wolves in India. Such attacks are an aberration of wolf behavior and should be viewed within their special ecological and socio-economic context."

http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/intermed/inter_human/india_abstract_003.asp

http://www.wolftrust.org.uk/a-wkp7-explaining-attacks.html

"The attacks in India were in the 90's and featured on many programs, including the learning and discovery channels. How long have your 'documented ' cases been kept? 1909 or so? Wolves were nearly gone and afraid of man by the time reliable record keeping could be done."

You think no records were kept before 1909? Get real. Documentation and record keeping, admittedly, was not as thorough. But it wasn't nonexistent.

"I don't believe every Russian novelist since Dostoyekski is wrong about wolves."

What the hell does a novelist know about wolves? Jack London was a novelist and he didn't know anything about wolves either.

"MPO - they used to say similar things about MT Lions but have toned that down due spate of recent attacks. Give wolves more time it 'come back' in the lower 48 and see what happens."

It doesn't matter that you have a better chance of being struck by lightning, twice, than being attacked by a Mt. Lion?

"The only good wolf is a rug- or in Alaska.i"

Biased, ignorant people used to say similiar things about Native Americans.
 
Sorry- they killed the wolves they thought responsible for the wolf attacks and deaths in India- several months later- new attacks different wolves- not one animal.

I'm sorry if I misread you about wolf attacks in the world. 1909 was an arbitrary number- the last wolves were killed in the late 1930's or so.
I'm not going to match you wolf knowledge- you're up on the subject. However- you darn well know since civilization we know today has had hardly any contact or problem with wolves in America, due to their rarity, citing stats which suggest they are not a danger is disingenious. They said the exact same thing about Cougars up unitil the last few years. We'll see if you're right, it shouldn't take too many more years. The years stats were kept accurately the wolf was nearly gone- and you know this.

I stand by my statement that we do not have the wilderness expanses to have wolves without problems with people. There are too many people today. I guess you and I only have to wait. I'm 48 now. I'll live long enough to see a child killed by a wolf in the continental US before I die.

munk

Oh- as for Tolstoy and Dostoyekski- they were brilliant men. They both wrote matter of factly about wolf predation in poor sub artic Russia. Now, if they are wrong, and merely echoing romantic folk tales, (it's possible) but strange they all echoed the same story, spanning a couple hundred years.

I agree with you wolves are not going to be the problem other animals are- but it is not realistic to think once their numbers have swollen past the natural barriors of the NF and Wildernesss preserves, there will no incidents with people. And again- they used to say the same thing about Grizzly bear and Brown coastals- with the caveat only mothers with cubs attacked they told us. That turned out not to be true.
 
"I stand by my statement that we do not have the wilderness expanses to have wolves without problems with people. There are too many people today. I guess you and I only have to wait. I'm 48 now. I'll live long enough to see a child killed by a wolf in the continental US before I die."

Of course it's possible.....I hope you're wrong. We'd be better off, from a safety standpoint, to get rid of cigarettes and automobiles.
 
Ichor- I don't hate wolves. My interest in them came from the reintroduction of wolves to the Rocky Mountain north. There was both slanted pro and anti wolf literature and scientists. Most science is going to be on the side of the wolf, as most animal scientists grew up in an age of environmental depredation.

For a long time we haven't seen much trouble- and haven't had many wolves. It took us 150 years to get rid of them, (almost) and we will never be able to get rid of them again.

I've always read the Coyote was more adaptable. He can live right next to man.
But, we'll see. If having wolves means all of us pay a slight tax on beef and leather because of depredation that wouldn't be too bad. If big game hunting ended in America because wolves got the deer and elk, that would not be a good thing- the loss of tax revenue alone and the support industries.

Polls in Canada suggest strongly the public will never eliminate the wolf, and most people in Canada if given a choice would rather see the wolf get the deer than Johnny Cockaroo.

I have a a problem with this, and I don't even hunt much.

But like I said, if I live another 20 years the answers to these concerns will be there.
Oh, and my bunker sticker.. the only good wolf- I never had either the interest or the belief system to print it.

munk
 
" If having wolves means all of us pay a slight tax on beef and leather because of depredation that wouldn't be too bad. If big game hunting ended in America because wolves got the deer and elk, that would not be a good thing- the loss of tax revenue alone and the support industries."

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this type of thing, Munk, because we'll always be on opposite sides of the coin. I live in Idaho, where, as I'm sure you know, we have a growing wolf population. Ranchers are reimbursed for the few losses they have due to wolves, so no tax is necessary. I have to laugh, mirthlessly, when I hear all the pissin' and moanin' from deer and elk hunters about all the "game" they're killing. You see, THEY want to kill them....for sport. They don't even call them deer and elk......they're "game" animals. They don't kill....they "harvest". The wolf kills to eat.

As far a loss of tax and revenue.....and the support of industries. That's the same argument used for allowing snowmobiles in Yellowstone. The poor manufacturers of snowmobiles and people who rent out snowmobiles will lose business. I frankly wish they'd all go OUT of business.

John in Boise.
 
This post may result in a lot of receipes, but I won't eat them

For a while my wife and I did possum rescue. Often mother possums are killed by dogs or cars and the joeys survive in the mother's pouch.

We had to be certified by the Georgia Department of Human Resources to keep wild animals in our home. Strangley enough we came to really love these quiet peaceful creatures. In a domesticated sense they are like strange looking cats. They use a litter box and are very clean.

When frightened they can produce a scary 'gape.' with 50 teeth it is an impressive sight! But in captivity they rarely do this.

My wife, Anne named them all. One was named "Christian Slater.' Now everytime I look at the actor I think how much he looks like a possum.

Sometimes female possums carry things to make nests by curling their tail around items to hold them. We were often treated to the sight of Gwynneth carrying a wad of toilet paper and trying to find a place to nest.

They love grapes and cherries. They have hands to hold their food. They love fried chicken and joyfully eat a wing or drumstick bone, skin and all.

We were supposed to raise them to about an eight inch length and release them into the woods. We did this with many of the. They never look back. Never return.

Some we kept to maturity. However maturity and old age for a possum is about two, maybe three years. Then they slowly give way.

Christian Slater died slowly. I tried to tell myself that no possum ever had better care. Anne made him scrambled eggs and he loved yoghurt. His back legs went first. He crawled to his food and litter box. This went on for about a month, then his front legs gave out. We fed him asa he lay on his side. Vets coudn't help. He was two years old and had organ failure as well.

He lies buried in our back yard now. I can't do possum rescue any more. Such sweet creature, but their short lifespans.... Just too sad when they die.

So now we have two delightful dogs. SHould last about 15 to 20 years.

And like Munk, I mistreated wild animals as a young man. I shot them with my BB gun and later a 22 and later yet a 12 guage. I am ashamed to admit that I did not kill them for food. Don't know why I shot them, but I do remember the last rabbit, so soft and so defensless. I was 18 when I killed him and that was the last 'sport' shooting I ever did.

Maybe the possum rescue gave back some positive karma.

I like to think so.
 
Ichor- we will have to disagree. I believe you may have read 30 books, but they were of the same mind. I lived in Idaho when the Wolf reintroduction began. Wolves do not always kill for food. Wolves go on spree killings. Also,wolves do not always take the weak, sick and young for their meals, as misrepresented by the Movie Never Cry Wolf.

Wolves also historically would ravage an area and move on. There isn't any more area to 'move on'.

As for the tax- who do you think is paying for the reimbursement to livestock now!! The govt has no money- it is ours.

And for 'sport' hunting. Everyone I know eats the meat. That includes Idaho.



munk
 
Ranchers are reimbursed for the few losses they have due to wolves, so no tax is necessary. I have to laugh, mirthlessly, when I hear all the pissin' and moanin' from deer and elk hunters about all the "game" they're killing. You see, THEY want to kill them....for sport. They don't even call them deer and elk......they're "game" animals. They don't kill....they "harvest". The wolf kills to eat. >>> Ichor

This is a very unfair characteriszation. First, hunters eat the meat. Second, the meat hunters are allowed to pursue in the game fields brings in millions of dollars to Idaho alone, through tax, lic, ammo, lodging, etc etc. Third, the national ammo tax alone pays for game reintroductions and new wildlife habitat, and has paid for that ever since "Sportsman' lobbied Congress to get it passed in the first place. Fourth, there is no difference between a man harvesting an animal and a wolf. And fifth, Wolves kill for fun and leave the animal down more often than you would like to acknowledge.

Finally, the livestock wolves kill are not rare, and will increase with time.

Your wolf knowledge is from a fast erroding side of the coin. You know more, but it is ideologically driven- as is evident by your grotesque characteriszation of game hunters and minimizing the problems of wolves.

I was afraid of this. Similar rosey scenerios were painted for the Cougar. That's over now. The Grizzly is fast loosing his rosy picture, and I don't think it will be long before the wolf is seen in true sheeps clothing- bloody.

I am not a rancher or a Sierra Clubber- I'm actually middle of the road. You are not, Ichor, you are clearly biased for wolves.

munk
 
munk said:
man.

Polls in Canada suggest strongly the public will never eliminate the wolf, and most people in Canada if given a choice would rather see the wolf get the deer than Johnny Cockaroo.
Click to expand...

Even worse, the huggers up here would rather have the deer suffer all winter and die of starvation due to over population/limited food than let Johnny C. take a crack at them.

By the way how is Johnny doing haven't seen him for quite a spell.
 
I wonder if he used a rear naked choke to subdue the wolf? Or maybe an arm bar? Paw locks are hard to do.
 
The owner of Buffalo Bore ammo, Tim Sundles I believe, from Carmen Idaho, shot and killed a wolf that attacked him and his wife while camping. It was one of those "reintoduced into the wilds" wolves. It wanted to eat, so people are fair game it thought, before its demise.

Even now over a year later he is still tied up fighting the legal headches. And costing him big bucks.

To hell with hostile animals and / or people for that matter. :cool:
 
Bill, that was a good read about the possums. I never knew much about them. Frequently they'd wind up in my Havahart traps when I was trying to catch house eaters (squirrels) or rats.

I let them go with caution, after seeing that gape with all those pin teeth. They never run away, just walk away slowly, like getting over an insult.

Tried to give you a green stamp, the bot wouldn't let me yet.


Ad Astra
 
Bill Marsh said:
This post may result in a lot of receipes, but I won't eat them

For a while my wife and I did possum rescue. Often mother possums are killed by dogs or cars and the joeys survive in the mother's pouch.

We had to be certified by the Georgia Department of Human Resources to keep wild animals in our home. Strangley enough we came to really love these quiet peaceful creatures. In a domesticated sense they are like strange looking cats. They use a litter box and are very clean.

When frightened they can produce a scary 'gape.' with 50 teeth it is an impressive sight! But in captivity they rarely do this.

My wife, Anne named them all. One was named "Christian Slater.' Now everytime I look at the actor I think how much he looks like a possum.

Sometimes female possums carry things to make nests by curling their tail around items to hold them. We were often treated to the sight of Gwynneth carrying a wad of toilet paper and trying to find a place to nest.

They love grapes and cherries. They have hands to hold their food. They love fried chicken and joyfully eat a wing or drumstick bone, skin and all.

We were supposed to raise them to about an eight inch length and release them into the woods. We did this with many of the. They never look back. Never return.

Some we kept to maturity. However maturity and old age for a possum is about two, maybe three years. Then they slowly give way.

Christian Slater died slowly. I tried to tell myself that no possum ever had better care. Anne made him scrambled eggs and he loved yoghurt. His back legs went first. He crawled to his food and litter box. This went on for about a month, then his front legs gave out. We fed him asa he lay on his side. Vets coudn't help. He was two years old and had organ failure as well.

He lies buried in our back yard now. I can't do possum rescue any more. Such sweet creature, but their short lifespans.... Just too sad when they die.

So now we have two delightful dogs. SHould last about 15 to 20 years.

And like Munk, I mistreated wild animals as a young man. I shot them with my BB gun and later a 22 and later yet a 12 guage. I am ashamed to admit that I did not kill them for food. Don't know why I shot them, but I do remember the last rabbit, so soft and so defensless. I was 18 when I killed him and that was the last 'sport' shooting I ever did.

Maybe the possum rescue gave back some positive karma.

I like to think so.
Click to expand...

My mother and I did the same thing when we lived out in the country, Bill. We never bothered to be certified by the conservation officers as a lot of them in this area real jerks and would just as soon have you leave the critters helpless on the side of the road. So we just ignored them and decided to take the fine if it ever came to that. It didn't. We ended up raising two litters (or whatever possums have). The first one didn't last long. We found 5 of them on a wooded path that must have fallen off their mother's back without her knowing it. By the time we had found them, flies had laid eyes in their eyes. Most of them didn't last a week, but one made it almost a month before he just gave out. They didn't have much of a chance, but at least they got a chance.
The next litter was from a mother possum that had been hit by a car. the joeys had scrambled out her pouch and were wondering around blind. A couple had already been mashed by, but we were able to save 6 of them. One was pretty banged up and had been clipped by a car losing half of his tail and 3 toes. He died within a week. The others grew fast and were happy. We constructed a big 10X8X8 cage for them at the wood's edge. They got a little weak in the knees at one point, but we tried slipping them some blood meal and bone meal into a bowl of oatmeal. I have NEVER seen possums that big in my life. They grew to be huge. We turned all of ours loose after a few months and they happily trodded off into the woods. However, every once in awhile we'd find one that had snuck into the house via that glass door we kept cracked for the cats. Really neat animals. I enjoyed taking care of them.

Jake
 
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