You ever just happen to get one REALLY right? (Sharpening)

[Fred.Rowe]

Sharpening is indeed an art. All my edges reach a minimum standard based on the task at hand and circumstances or they aren't considered to be "sarpened". Some turn out better than others, but that's by my standards. I imagine if any one of us were to whip up edges on a handful of knives, rate them ourselves and hand the lot over to another party, odds are they wouldn't rate them in the exact same order.

Working with a lot of blade length can produce some bloody results. Those are the ones that get me as well. Hope it wasn't your primary hand.

There are knives that will not take an edge, I'm sure you'll agree. Applying identical tools and abrasives the results are not always similar. I don't think its the technique thats failed but instead its the steel, geometry and heat treat. In results produced, free hand is the exception as stated, thats because it has variables. How tired you are, do you have a huge bandage on one hand. Do you suffer from a sinus cold, changing your hearing perception, not being able to receive auditory feed back from the edge's contact with the abrasive. With a controlled system, as I use, these variables are negated. Therefore, if I sharpen 6 identical knives the result will be 6 identical edges; if I don't drop one and stab myself.
In our shop we do a great deal of repetitive production used in the manufacture of the products we make. The same mindset is used in sharpening in our shop. Our wet belt grinder, using a sensitive bubble vile to maintain degree of approach accuracy produces extremely consistent edge bevel angles. I don't figure the deviation is .35 degrees per side. I follow the belt machine with an ERU in the vise sitting next to the machine, I don't even have to get up, getting old . I follow this with a 1 or 2 passes @ a degree setting that matches the previous angle. This is the apex strop function which happens almost instantly. Outside of these functions its only a matter of choosing the level of polished refinement desired.
I believe how you sharpen HH, this is artful. But anything produced on a controlled system, such as the one I use, is only a matter of performing a known task using known and well proven technique.
Not everyone who sharpens knives is in possession of the shop I have the good fortune to work in. But that does not alter the basic precepts of the point being made.
The package I ship with the ERU sharpener, contains everything needed, other than a stone or diamond plate, to produce the finest of edges, repeatably on most any knife and on most any steel. Having 50,000 dollars worth of equipment in one's possession is not necessary to produce fine edges just as sharpening at a specified time of day and facing east while doing so will make you a better knife sharpener.

Regards, Fred

 

[K.O.D.]

By far the Spyderco Dragonfly 2 in ZDP-189. So sharp I cut through a sith lightsaber with it. I couldn't believe I could get such a hard steel so sharp so easily. Then I went to sharpen my CPM-M4 Gayle Bradley and struggled with it. Still do struggle with it.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Working with a lot of blade length can produce some bloody results. Those are the ones that get me as well. Hope it wasn't your primary hand.

There are knives that will not take an edge, I'm sure you'll agree. Applying identical tools and abrasives the results are not always similar. I don't think its the technique thats failed but instead its the steel, geometry and heat treat. In results produced, free hand is the exception as stated, thats because it has variables. How tired you are, do you have a huge bandage on one hand. Do you suffer from a sinus cold, changing your hearing perception, not being able to receive auditory feed back from the edge's contact with the abrasive. With a controlled system, as I use, these variables are negated. Therefore, if I sharpen 6 identical knives the result will be 6 identical edges; if I don't drop one and stab myself.
In our shop we do a great deal of repetitive production used in the manufacture of the products we make. The same mindset is used in sharpening in our shop. Our wet belt grinder, using a sensitive bubble vile to maintain degree of approach accuracy produces extremely consistent edge bevel angles. I don't figure the deviation is .35 degrees per side. I follow the belt machine with an ERU in the vise sitting next to the machine, I don't even have to get up, getting old . I follow this with a 1 or 2 passes @ a degree setting that matches the previous angle. This is the apex strop function which happens almost instantly. Outside of these functions its only a matter of choosing the level of polished refinement desired.
I believe how you sharpen HH, this is artful. But anything produced on a controlled system, such as the one I use, is only a matter of performing a known task using known and well proven technique.
Not everyone who sharpens knives is in possession of the shop I have the good fortune to work in. But that does not alter the basic precepts of the point being made.
The package I ship with the ERU sharpener, contains everything needed, other than a stone or diamond plate, to produce the finest of edges, repeatably on most any knife and on most any steel. Having 50,000 dollars worth of equipment in one's possession is not necessary to produce fine edges just as sharpening at a specified time of day and facing east while doing so will make you a better knife sharpener.

Regards, Fred

From my perspective in printing, I approach everything as a process. Part of that involves understanding each step and knowing when a bit of fudging will be unnoticed or a critical woge. I also have spent a lot of time sharpening when I didn't "feel" like it or wasn't at my best, sometimes intentionally so I could elevate the baseline results. My worst has to be good, my best has to be exceptional, perfection is always over the horizon just out of sight.

In line with treating it as a minimum acceptable result, I have spent a lot of time busting down my technique to assist in this by adopting as much commonality in physical technique as possible. Just as on a machine, being tired etc is no excuse for turning out poor edges - if one is attempting the task, and have a system, it should yield a minimum result that is still unobjectionable, no matter. My angle tolerance likely isn't as reliable as yours, but certainly falls in a range that cannot be readily differentiated and works for the given tool.

Currently I find warped tools to be the biggest source of inconsistency as it can take some gymnastics to accommodate the defect depending on how severe - getting bogged down on subjective judgement calls and increased QC can take its toll on the outcome.

Many ways to skin that cat, one of the best things about this forum is to learn about them all and how they are applied.

I've learned my lesson on those big knives, I fold the towel up and place it on the bench, bring the tool to the towel and my hand doesn't go anywhere near the edge. The closest call I've had where I didn't cut myself was wiping the water off my Tramontina Bolo after doing a bunch of cutting - pulled it across my pant leg on the front of my thigh. Was a straight back pull, but the edge has a slight recurve - as the belly slid across it filleted the denim, literally cutting halfway through the fabric about 1/8" and along about 2" length. That was close!

 

[Fred.Rowe]

From my perspective in printing, I approach everything as a process. Part of that involves understanding each step and knowing when a bit of fudging will be unnoticed or a critical woge. I also have spent a lot of time sharpening when I didn't "feel" like it or wasn't at my best, sometimes intentionally so I could elevate the baseline results. My worst has to be good, my best has to be exceptional, perfection is always over the horizon just out of sight.

In line with treating it as a minimum acceptable result, I have spent a lot of time busting down my technique to assist in this by adopting as much commonality in physical technique as possible. Just as on a machine, being tired etc is no excuse for turning out poor edges - if one is attempting the task, and have a system, it should yield a minimum result that is still unobjectionable, no matter. My angle tolerance likely isn't as reliable as yours, but certainly falls in a range that cannot be readily differentiated and works for the given tool.

Currently I find warped tools to be the biggest source of inconsistency as it can take some gymnastics to accommodate the defect depending on how severe - getting bogged down on subjective judgement calls and increased QC can take its toll on the outcome.

Many ways to skin that cat, one of the best things about this forum is to learn about them all and how they are applied.

I've learned my lesson on those big knives, I fold the towel up and place it on the bench, bring the tool to the towel and my hand doesn't go anywhere near the edge. The closest call I've had where I didn't cut myself was wiping the water off my Tramontina Bolo after doing a bunch of cutting - pulled it across my pant leg on the front of my thigh. Was a straight back pull, but the edge has a slight recurve - as the belly slid across it filleted the denim, literally cutting halfway through the fabric about 1/8" and along about 2" length. That was close!

Good post:thumbup:

I had no idea what I was trying to do 15 years ago. I thought sharp meant the object being cut ended up in two pieces, no matter the effort involved. Once the skill is acquired where you can produce edges that border on dangerous it takes much more care when being around them. I put warnings on the edges I produce these days. "Do not test with your thumb" and the like So many ways to skin the cat, that's for sure. As we have discussed many times, its understanding what is possible. Ten different people will give you ten different ratings on the cutting ability of any given edge, unless that edge is truly at its peak and then I think all would agree that it is extremely sharp. If a person does not have enough experience to where they can make that judgement then they will not be able to get the max from their sharpening ventures.

I like the phrase "minimum acceptable result" I know this does not mean "good enough"

Fred

 

[fsatsil]

Sharpening is indeed an art. All my edges reach a minimum standard based on the task at hand and circumstances or they aren't considered to be "sharpened". Some turn out better than others, but that's by my standards. I imagine if any one of us were to whip up edges on a handful of knives, rate them ourselves and hand the lot over to another party, odds are they wouldn't rate them in the exact same order.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. What might be the perfect to one person may not be to another. Like the saying goes, one mans garbage is another mans gold

 

[Skimo]

Sharp is pretty easily defined, cutting free standing hairs, the HHT. I got to the point on the edge pro where I could produce HHT-4 at 1,000 grit reliably. Coming up on 7 years using the same system, untold hours sharpening everything from 1070 to the newer super steels. The only thing I won't even consider touching is a good pair of hair stylists scissors, I don't have any practice in that skillset. I also no longer touch DE knives, too expensive.

 

[blanex1]

its only taken me about 1 1/2 years now,but am getting about 4 out of five knifes that come out perfect! in say a weeks time)yes its slow,but i'm no knife smith!but my cutters are coming out with perfect consistently and able to slice though phone book paper at will with no problem,i mostly rely on my edge pro to do re-bevels as i struggle with freehand and use the sharpmaker for my maint.touch up's,hopefully one day i'll be able to master freehand! but i think i'm doing fine right now at my sharpening skill level.

 

[blanex1]

Sharp is pretty easily defined, cutting free :witless:hairs, the HHT. I got to the point on the edge pro where I could produce HHT-4 at 1,000 grit reliably. Coming up on 7 years using the same system, untold hours sharpening everything from 1070 to the newer super steels. The only thing I won't even consider touching is a good pair of hair stylists scissors, I don't have any practice in that skillset. I also no longer touch DE knives, too expensive.

whats the HHT or HHT-4 standing for!:witless:

 

[Vicv]

Hht is the hanging hair test. A quick Google search will show you along with YouTube videos but it's basically cutting a single hair held in between thumb and forefinger. The number dictates how easy it cuts. I don't believe that's a good indication of sharpness though. For a straight razor yes because geometry doesn't matter so much as only the very edge is used. With a knife the blade usually must pass through the medium. I can put an hht edge on an axe. Doesn't mean it'll slice carrots well

 

[Skimo]

Hht is the hanging hair test. A quick Google search will show you along with YouTube videos but it's basically cutting a single hair held in between thumb and forefinger. The number dictates how easy it cuts. I don't believe that's a good indication of sharpness though. For a straight razor yes because geometry doesn't matter so much as only the very edge is used. With a knife the blade usually must pass through the medium. I can put an hht edge on an axe. Doesn't mean it'll slice carrots well

Yes, overall geometry will affect cutting, no one uses an axe to cut up tomatoes. HHT is all about sharpness, about refining the apex... that is sharpness. Please don't confuse sharpness with blade geometry. HHT-4 on a blade vs. HHT-1 on the same blade, HHT-4 is sharper.

 

[Vicv]

I agree but the edge is part of the geometry. Every time you sharpen you're trying to maintain the geometry by thinning the grind otherwise it gets thicker and thicker. A lot of people sharpen the edge until it passes their sharpness test. Slicing paper, posing arm hairs, etc. I'm just saying there's more to it than that and that's what this thread is discussing. The way a knife cuts is vastly more important than the very edge itself. I guess what I'm getting at is there's more to a perfect edge than how sharp the actual edge is