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Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
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Your Favorite Steel.
- Thread starter paintfool
- Start date
When I was knifemaking using the stock removel method, I used both O-1 and D-2 exclusively.
My blades were heat treated professionally to Rc57-59 and truly heaven was here on earth as far as satisified customers.
In my years as a toolmaker(now retired), the old WW1 era die steel, D-2 solved many a punch, pierce, cut, bend or slit type problem in the toolroom.
My belief is that the edge-holding ability of D-2 is unequaled.
Downside?
A D-2 blade is consequently more difficult to sharpen.
For many years I used bench mounted medium and fine India followed by hard Arkansas stones for sharpening but recently I'm using the Spyderco system with great success.
Respectflly, Zeke
My blades were heat treated professionally to Rc57-59 and truly heaven was here on earth as far as satisified customers.
In my years as a toolmaker(now retired), the old WW1 era die steel, D-2 solved many a punch, pierce, cut, bend or slit type problem in the toolroom.
My belief is that the edge-holding ability of D-2 is unequaled.
Downside?
A D-2 blade is consequently more difficult to sharpen.
For many years I used bench mounted medium and fine India followed by hard Arkansas stones for sharpening but recently I'm using the Spyderco system with great success.
Respectflly, Zeke
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2000
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Most factory knives of more than a few years ago, if they were advertised as 440, were not 440C. That still holds true. If a factory actually uses 440C, and has it properly heat treated, they're proud of that fact, and would advertise it as such, not the generic term "440". That term can actually mean anything, because it means nothing. Their is no steel called "440" and a knife labeled as such could be anything.jaegar said:It's true, I haven't worked any 440. I also don't have a custom knife in 440. although I do believe that something custom made is better, factory isn't too far behind (if using 440 I believe. Also this refers to stock removal.)
Practically all of the knives that I have grown up with were 440. At least 4. My main complaint is that it doesnt hold an edge very long (and I do know how to sharpen. Very well I might add). The stainless properties are nice, but edge holding, it's just not all it's pumped up to be.
I'm sorry that you were offended by my post, if you re read it, you will notice I put a clause in saying that this is merely my opinion. I feel I am entitled to my opinion. Other makers have praised other steels. When I first had 440, I liked it, but that is because it was better than what I previously used. I have found that ATS 34 seems to out preform 440, along with AUS 6 and 8. (in the stainless steels)
~Brian
There are three grades of it, 440A, 440B, and 440C. The latter being the best for blades(and about the only 440 used by custom makers), but the first two being easier on factory machines.
Not holding an edge either means 440A, B, or improperly heat treated 440C.
I use both 440C, and 01 in my shop knives, all were heat treated by the same person, Paul Bos, a professional heat treater to who many makers send their blades. I use them side by side, and a third of the 01 is worn down from use, and sharpening, the 440C is not nearly as worn, it just seems to wear better, and it holds it's edge as well, or better than the 01.
It's not the miracle steel of the ages, but it's far from junk.
There's one big time knife company back in the south east that until recently made their stainless blades from 440B.
I wouldn't use that steel if you gave it to me, and paid me to use it, but their knives command a premium on the secondary market, and I've not seen any complaints about it, at least openly.
I wasn't offended by your post, just saddened. You ran down a steel that many custom makers use to make a living, and did so without showing any proof of why. Many people wil read it, and assume it's true, and that's not right.
Like I stated above, and elsewhere, most problems with any good stainless steel used in knives can be traced to heat treat problems.
Edited to add; Fox, sorry, I didn't see your prior post on this subject.
And jaeger, because you didn't like a knife you say was 440C still does not mean that 440C is bad. There could be a hundred reasons the knife didn't perform like you wanted, most likely poor HT, and/or poor edge geometry.
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CPM-3V. Extemely fine-grained, tough, and very wear-resistant. Other than being nonstainless, it can give any other cutlery steel a run for it's money in overall performance.
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I'm very aware of the different grades of 440 (If they are called grades.) as I have read several books discussing it. I must say I've been convinced by you that the quality is in the heat treat. That must be why custom makers use it so much. Sometime in the future I'll try some 440c on a knife I make, and test it extensively side by side one of ATS 34 or D2 or something. I'll make sure to post my results. I guess I'm more ignorant than I thought.
BTW, I have not used O1, and did not compare it to the 440. I do not believe 440 is junk, it'll make a great knife, and I know some that swear by it. It's just not my favorite
~Brian
BTW, I have not used O1, and did not compare it to the 440. I do not believe 440 is junk, it'll make a great knife, and I know some that swear by it. It's just not my favorite
~Brian
I guess I'll have to wait and see about my 440C blades, I sent them out for HT by Allied Heat Treating today, when I get them back I'll be sure to post my thoughts, but I'm pretty sure I'll be happy with the results.....I have never had a 440C blade which I didn't like, luck I guess.
I have had blades labled as 440Stainless....which out right sucked....
does anyone remember that cutting test link? it shows 440C to be among the top.
I liked working with it a lot, I like working with O1 a lot more, but still would not shoot down the working habits of 440C.
but then I'm still green as the grass grows when it comes to making, so take that with a grain of salt!
I think D2 will be the next I try.
Steve
I have had blades labled as 440Stainless....which out right sucked....
does anyone remember that cutting test link? it shows 440C to be among the top.
I liked working with it a lot, I like working with O1 a lot more, but still would not shoot down the working habits of 440C.
but then I'm still green as the grass grows when it comes to making, so take that with a grain of salt!
I think D2 will be the next I try.
Steve
- Joined
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The absolute best steel that I have ever seen to date is Rosta Frei. This is the best stuff and is unbelievable. It was developed in the West Indies...
It is made from a proprietary process and maybe this shouldn't be discussed on an open forum such as this since only a select few have been allowed to use it to date.
I may get in trouble for posting this but sorry guys (and you know who you are), I just couldn't keep it to myself any longer. Something this good just shouldn't be hidden any longer!
Craig
It is made from a proprietary process and maybe this shouldn't be discussed on an open forum such as this since only a select few have been allowed to use it to date.
I may get in trouble for posting this but sorry guys (and you know who you are), I just couldn't keep it to myself any longer. Something this good just shouldn't be hidden any longer!
Craig
But den, maybe not, cuz who be have 'nuff sacred herb to heat treat right? And dem what do won' care nohow.
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Shouldn't that be spelled Rasta Fre'? Heat treated on a ganga fueled forge and quenched in 151.
Gossman Knives
Edged Toolmaker
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C L Wilkins said:
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OK, so now you have responses from some of the others that were fortunate enough to be selected to use this steel.
I will give you just a small hint of its properties...
When pulled from the heat treat oven its molecular make up of the proprietary alloys allows it to super cool. Dr. Robert Marley, physiologist in super conductors at UofWI was instrumental in this breakthrough. It cools so fast it is akin to freon evaporating and frost will actually form on it! THIS STEEL CRYOS ITSELF! It saves industry a considerable amount of time and money. It completely eliminates the need for a cryo chamber or dewar!
We were warned not to touch it at all for a solid hour while it was going through this cycle. I don't know how hard it was getting but its so hard the cat couldn't scratch it! I could bend it about 45 degrees and it would come back to center but I was only dealing with the smaller stock.
I think that Mike or Fitzo can give more details...I only had 60 feet of the stuff to work with. I wish I could get more but after letting the cat out of the bag, I don't think that'll happen. I have already received a scathing email.
Oh, one other thing, it forges like a dream as well!
Craig
I will give you just a small hint of its properties...
When pulled from the heat treat oven its molecular make up of the proprietary alloys allows it to super cool. Dr. Robert Marley, physiologist in super conductors at UofWI was instrumental in this breakthrough. It cools so fast it is akin to freon evaporating and frost will actually form on it! THIS STEEL CRYOS ITSELF! It saves industry a considerable amount of time and money. It completely eliminates the need for a cryo chamber or dewar!
We were warned not to touch it at all for a solid hour while it was going through this cycle. I don't know how hard it was getting but its so hard the cat couldn't scratch it! I could bend it about 45 degrees and it would come back to center but I was only dealing with the smaller stock.
I think that Mike or Fitzo can give more details...I only had 60 feet of the stuff to work with. I wish I could get more but after letting the cat out of the bag, I don't think that'll happen. I have already received a scathing email.
Oh, one other thing, it forges like a dream as well!
Craig
fitzo
Gold Member
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- 6,648
Well, Craig, since you've broken the secret pact and let the secret cat out of the hidden bag, we may as well tell em about some of the rest of it:
If you use the right color Sharpie, and draw the profile, then leave it under a full moon pointed north, it'll blank itself out if you have the right incantation. Some people include a mushroom.
Then, with the right color of beveling sharpie, you mark the bevels and any false edge, leave it in the dark in goat urine, and it grinds itself. Don't mark all the way to the edge at this point or it'll be too sharp to handle.
OK, I've given enough, here... Mike can tell 'em the rest. At least I didn't divulge which Sharpies.
But, I tell ya again, ya give up the secret knifemaker handshake or tell em the trick with the Cap'n Crunch whistle sonic supertemper and they'll come get ya!
If you use the right color Sharpie, and draw the profile, then leave it under a full moon pointed north, it'll blank itself out if you have the right incantation. Some people include a mushroom.
Then, with the right color of beveling sharpie, you mark the bevels and any false edge, leave it in the dark in goat urine, and it grinds itself. Don't mark all the way to the edge at this point or it'll be too sharp to handle.
OK, I've given enough, here... Mike can tell 'em the rest. At least I didn't divulge which Sharpies.
But, I tell ya again, ya give up the secret knifemaker handshake or tell em the trick with the Cap'n Crunch whistle sonic supertemper and they'll come get ya!
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I have probably "heat treated" a thousand pounds of Rasta Fre' over the years, but never in large quantities. I have found the quality to be quite variable, often due to different points of origin. One mill may put out higher quality than another, with greater carbidoid content...
The quench in 151 is also critical.
The quench in 151 is also critical.
Yes Jegar they are called grades. 440 A and B have apx. .50 and .70 carbon. too low to heat treat properly. 440c-1.00 /Good transformation in heat treat. aus 6,Euro version of 440-A aus8-440-B, Aus-10, very similar to 440c. 154cm came before ats-34. Originaly developed as a high hot-hardness steel for jet turbin blade to ad strength at 700 deg. to prevent shattering in bird strikes. This steed was first championed by R.W. Loveless. The Cricible calalog calls it NOW GET READY, modified 440-c,154.cm and ats-34 will definatly hold an edge much better above 700 deg F. If you can cut fast enough to reach that temp, from friction I'm duly impressed. If not, it's basicaly 440-c. R.W. is now talking to me about switching to BG-42. More learing curve. An Important part of our craft is knowing about and studing the materials we use. Hope this helps. M. Lovettjaegar said:
f.
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ML, have you tried any of that BG-42? I haven't yet, but I am wondering how easy it is to work. Probably like S30?
jaegar said:Well, I haven't tried out that many, but from what I know/ have seen, my favorite is D2. I haven't tried that extensively, but from my experiences I like it.440 stinks. Really. (Not to offend you makers that use it. It's just more for a display knife I think.)
~Brian
D2 is a great steel in the edge holding dept, but if you live in Hawaii....
IT SUCKS!!!!! I have see it RUST heavily over night on a real rainy night.
BG 42 is a great middle of the road knife steel, holds and edge and wont rust very easy..............Crucible put it in the back seat with their particle metallurgy........nothing holds an edge like 420V or 440V.
440C properly heat treated (by Paul Bos) is one of the best steels ever made.
Ken Onion is a big proponet of this steel.................and so am I.
It takes a very nice edge, holds it for a respectable time, and is very stain resistant.
If the current line up of CPM steels from Crucible werent available both of us would still be using it........it is FAR better than ATS 34.
AND BY THE WAY-I have some heat treated TNT blades made out of the new CPM 154 CM...........
thats right.........crucible particle metallurgy 154 CM. It seems VERY tough.....more to follow.
Thats my opinion...............and IM STICKING WITH IT!!!!!
