Your opinion on chisel grinds?

Cliff Stamp said:
It isn't ignorance, they are just not intended for cutting foods. If you are slicing into rigid material you will notice the knife tend to curve irregardless of which side it is ground. On kitchen knives this doesn't tend to happen as the media falls away from the cut side, especially when you are making very precise cuts.

-Cliff
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Cliff, it makes no difference what you are cutting. The blade should be configured with the flat or concave part on the inside or facing the users body. Sight is one of the senses we use to guide and control a knife. There is no disadvantage in making it this way. There are disadvantages in making the opposite way. Making them left handed simply confuses the great majority of users who are right handed. I can't imagine what else it would be other than ignorance.

And, sorry, chisel ground knives started in this country by making knives that were influenced by Japanese cutlery. Explaining that other societies also have chisel ground knives isn't the point.
 
A druid said:
Also you look at the Emerson you will see the other side of the argument he claims the chisel grind the best thing since fire and the only uses the grinds to appease the general public.
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And, strangely, he is one of the makers who makes them backward for the majority of people.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
When a chisel grind cuts through thick material, it slides away from the beveled side. This is why people say it makes a curved cut. When a chisel grind cuts something lighter or thinner, like a small piece of food, the knife edge goes straight down, but the cut-off piece of food slides off to the side, which is what you want.

I like to check out new knives in the kitchen. I was never able to use my Benchmade 975 (Emerson CQC-7) on any food effectively.
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The Japanese usually make the non beveled side of the blade concave. They do this to make it easier and faster to flatten it and keep it flat. They make their chisels the same way. It is true that, if you cut something soft (like raw meat) the blade does tend to rotate clockwise for a right handed knife and counter for a left. It is just because of this concavity. It is easy to learn to use, however. You just need to keep pressure against the tendency of the blade to roll and it will cut as straight as an arrow. On flat ground blades like the Emerson, this shouldn't be a problem. The blade should simply go straight into whatever is being cut.

Others have noted that this type of grind isn't good for everything and that is certainly true. This type of blade is for slicing, not chopping or stabbing or anything else. It is a precision slicer.
 
Well I think I will have to get this custom as slicing will be it's primary job. No stabbing with this knife though. If I have the money sometime next week I'm going to order a Super Tsuno from DJ at American Kami.
 
Bors said:
Chisel Grinds "ONLY" belong on wood working tools and certian cooking knives Thats all period.

Don't wast you money.

Stick with companies that are willing to spend the time and money to grind their knifes on both sides.
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oh thats certainly a debatable subject, for sure, all 3 statements in fact lol.

you can get a CG plenty sharp believe me.

i doubt ernie saves a whole lotta $$ doing CG's vs "V" grinds lol.

have ya ever even seen a ZBG?
 
oh, and as far as left hand/right hand CG cutting differently thats BS i have had both and they both cut the same, makes no real diff at all. oh maybe for doing fine work but as far as what EKIs are designed for, SD, either one works just fine.
 
lotus1972 said:
I'm looking at a custom and the one I'm looking at has a chisel grind. I have never had a chisel grind on a knife so I'm looking for some input. The knife will be used for push and draw cuts and chopping.
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I hate them. Really can't stand them.

When I get a knife, I do it with a view toward not only how it will function, but how it will be to sharpen.

I don't think chisels cut well, because their grind pushes them toward the back of the blade as they move through material.

I don't like the idea of sharpening them, because even though some claim you need only sharpen the ground side of the blade, if you do that you will have a major burr on the back side, so you DO have to sharpen the back side, and that's a bitch to do because you will either scratch up the back of the blade or you will increase the grind angle -- which ideally should be zero on the back side of the blade.

I think there is not anywhere near enough benefit from the allegedly lower bevel angle to overcome the drawbacks.

The only chisel ground blade I ever bought was a CRKT Neck P.E.C.K., and I recently reground it to be symmetrical.

-Jeffrey
 
Knife Outlet said:
The Japanese usually make the non beveled side of the blade concave. They do this to make it easier and faster to flatten it and keep it flat. They make their chisels the same way. It is true that, if you cut something soft (like raw meat) the blade does tend to rotate clockwise for a right handed knife and counter for a left. It is just because of this concavity.
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It isn't do to the concavity, it is due to the grind being asymmetric, it happens just as readily with the ones which are flat ground on the back. You can see the same thing with any grind which isn't even. My Sebenza for example will pull strongly to the right cutting cardboard because the grind isn't even.

Others have noted that this type of grind isn't good for everything and that is certainly true.
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There are many types of wood working tools which have similar grinds and they are meant for heavy work including chopping, a broad axe being an obvious example. Even in Japanese cutlery there are models such as the Deba-Bocho which has a thick blade for heavy cutting of fish and can be used as a cleaver. That knife isn't meant simply for precision slicing.

Knife Outlet said:
...it makes no difference what you are cutting.
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Deep cuts through rigid materials will exert a binding force on the blade on both sides, because the grind is not symmetric it will turn because the forces don't balance each other. It doesn't matter on which side the blade is ground, it will still turn and to stop it from turning you just turn the wrist slightly in the opposite direction.

And, sorry, chisel ground knives started in this country by making knives that were influenced by Japanese cutlery. Explaining that other societies also have chisel ground knives isn't the point.
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Some of the tactical knifemakers have been influenced by Japanese cutlery, and some specific designs such as the cord wrapped tanto chisel grinds are very much japanese, however not every chisel ground knife looks like that. There was an article on this in Knives 2002 where a western maker ground a parang with a chisel grind which was not based on a japanese design but from another culture. Any western maker with a background in wood working would also be very familiar with a chisel grind irrespective of any knowledge of japanese blades. That grind is very old and not limited to Japan so it is hard to argue that every western knifemaker was introduced to it by looking at Japanese blades, especially when it exists in many western knives already.

-Cliff
 
SIFU1A said:
oh, and as far as left hand/right hand CG cutting differently thats BS i have had both and they both cut the same, makes no real diff at all. oh maybe for doing fine work but as far as what EKIs are designed for, SD, either one works just fine.
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It is NOT BS. It is a fact of life. Not just fine work, utility work, anything. A proper CG should be on the correct side.

As I said, for SD, all that matters is that it is pointy and sharp. What matters in the EKI case is how it LOOKS, since pointy and sharp is taken for granted. As far as looking right, when a blade is photographed with the point pointed towards the left as is traditional for some reason, a Lefty CG photographs better, which is why he uses it.

Notice that on more utility minded folders like the commander, the blade is v ground.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
It isn't do to the concavity, it is due to the grind being asymmetric, it happens just as readily with the ones which are flat ground on the back. You can see the same thing with any grind which isn't even. My Sebenza for example will pull strongly to the right cutting cardboard because the grind isn't even.

That is very interesting.
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I always thought the chisel grind was designed to kill a ninja WITHOUT all the screaming and flailing about. But never more than one at a time.
:confused:
 
I have a tiny chisel ground knife by Sean Perkings. It's about 3" evenly split between blade and handle, all steel. The chisel ground is convex on one side flat on the other and it is ground "right handed". From my user experience, this "handed" grind is definitely necessary. The grind is a great slicer for anything from boxes, tape, end of carrots, pills, thread, cloth, whatever. Steel is A1 and its tempered very hard on the edge so it rarely needs sharpening as long as its used as a slicer. Great knife, great grind. That being said, this is a tiny utility knife, I wouldn't buy most other patterns in the same grind. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

By the way, isn't the spyderco serration pattern a modified chisel grind?
 
brownshoe said:
Don't knock it until you've tried it.
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That is a common wood working grind, drawknives have it for example. Fred has a review of the Kerver :

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/2292/perkinsrev.htm

By the way, isn't the spyderco serration pattern a modified chisel grind?
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Yes, few serrations are double ground. The primary grind is symmetric, hollow or flat. They had/have convex primary grinds on some knives (Moran) but I don't recall any being serrated.

-Cliff
 
i just bought a Benchmade Instigator. i believe it is chisel grind and is my first one of this kind.. i just got it to carry under my shirt and as a last line of defense type of knife... my main SD blade is the Spyderco Chinook II. i bought one of these yesterday from NGK when i went up there and i love that knife. then i got the instigator this afternoon at work... is the Instigator a pretty good knife for SD, mainly... even though it is a chisel grind?
 
partridge said:
It is NOT BS. It is a fact of life. Not just fine work, utility work, anything. A proper CG should be on the correct side.

As I said, for SD, all that matters is that it is pointy and sharp. What matters in the EKI case is how it LOOKS, since pointy and sharp is taken for granted. As far as looking right, when a blade is photographed with the point pointed towards the left as is traditional for some reason, a Lefty CG photographs better, which is why he uses it.

Notice that on more utility minded folders like the commander, the blade is v ground.
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whatever, i have tried both and imho its BS. if ya think ernie does CG's so they look good in a pic, well, dont know what to say but thats BS. i have seen a post on another forum where ernie goes in depth about why he uses CG's and it has nothing to do with how pics look lol. that is simply not correct.

commanders are not really a "V" grind either, call it what ya will but it is not imho a std "V" grind like, say a spyderco delica, it doesnt cut like nor sharpen like a conventional "V" grind. lotsa folks who havent handled one get confused, order 1 thinking its a conventional "V" and get it and go "WTF". not that its bad or funky or anything else but its not a conventional "V" grind, my friend.
 
SIFU1A said:
commanders are not really a "V" grind either, call it what ya will but it is not imho a std "V" grind like, say a spyderco delica, it doesnt cut like nor sharpen like a conventional "V" grind.
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The primary bevel on a Commander is a v grind. The secondary bevel is a chisel grind.
 
SIFU1A said:
whatever, i have tried both and imho its BS. if ya think ernie does CG's so they look good in a pic, well, dont know what to say but thats BS. i have seen a post on another forum where ernie goes in depth about why he uses CG's and not has nothing to do with how pics look lol. that is simply not correct.
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No, it is not BS. He uses Chisel grinds because you get a thinner edge profile, especially if they're zero ground as his customs were. This is freaking GREAT for tomatoes if done right, but I digress. As for *which side* he grinds the chisel on, which is what I was commenting on, I'll let his own faq (as cited above) explain:

Our tests and those of a major government agency determined that there was no difference between right and left side grinds for use as a tool or weapon. The left side was chosen for purposes of visual cue and reference. -Emerson Knives FAQ

Just what does 'visual cue and reference' mean then, and don't say it's esoteric ninja knife fighting jargon either. He does it that way because it's prettier.

As for the commander blade, while the very edge is chisel beveled, the main body of the blade is V ground, thus it cuts straight. Or at least straighter than CQC.
 
Well it might not make a difference to the government...the source of all wisdom? But what type of knife are they talking about?

I own and use a chisel ground knife, and it does make a difference when cutting some things, like slicing off a piece of apple or a wart. It doesn't make a whit of difference for many things, such as opening an envelope, cutting thread, etc.
 
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