Your thoughts on CNC in custom knives

U

UW Mitch

Joined
Nov 2, 1999
Messages
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This quarter one of the courses I'm taking is "Advanced Technical Communication for Engineers." I have a fairly large project of writing a recommendation/feasibility report. The good thing is, I got to choose the topic! So my topic is the use of CNC on custom knives.

In my report I will address the technical aspects of CNC, but I would also like to address the effect that using CNC technologies has on customer perception. I realize that this is a very sensitive subject, but I would like honest opinions from makers, purveyors, and customers. If you would like to help me, but don't want to share publicly, you can email a response
in private. The scenarios I would like to address are:

1. Makers who outsource parts other than basic hardware
2. Makers who own and operate their own CNC

As I said, I would like impressions on customer perception etc. If you're a maker in either category, I would especially like hear the reasoning behind your choices.

Again, I realize this can be a very sensitive subject, but I would
appreciate replies (in private if it's easier).

Thanks,
Mitch Lum

p.s. Gus, if this is too controversial or whatever, feel free to lock it...I'm just trying to gather resources for my paper.

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My Hobby Page
 
Hi Mitch,
Gosh I better be careful, I do not want to develop a rep as a jack booted thug
biggrin.gif
. Controversy is fine and can be a good thing to learn by.
(It is the way we handle it that can cause some overheated words sometimes).

We have had some great threads on the subject (some of my all-time favorites and we are due for another one.

My favorite


Customs?

Handmade?
 
My favorite - A 3-pager from shop talk that addresses grinding jigs, CNC, lasers, etc. Input from Lively, Lamey, Mayo, Ralph, Blade, and others.

All my thoughts on this subject are already in the above linked thread, so I'll just sit back and watch this one for a bit...
smile.gif
 
Mitch, I am going to email you a makers contact info who does his own CNC. He might be willing to tell you his opinion about the use of such technology. It is surprising considering that this maker is one of the long time ABS Mastersmiths.

Mail coming after the Stuper Bowl

Para
 
As he reaches for the can he grabs the lid flap, with his middle finger
biggrin.gif
, and pulls with all his might! He struggles and struggles to remove the lid and the seam stretches farther and farther. Then with his last burst of energy he pulls one more time and the seal begins to give way, the opening becoming ever wider and wider till it lets go completely, spilling the contents of the can upon the entire world, especially knifenuts
eek.gif
. The worms grow stronger and stronger and multiply like forumites
biggrin.gif
, eating and squirming they're way into our bodies. Making us writhe in agony as we contemplate the unltimate question,
...........TO CNC OR NOT TO CNC..............
aaaarrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......

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Take care!! Michael

Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!
http://www.nebsnow.com/L6steel
Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms!!!
 
Well dude......you already know how I feel about this subject.....like when you walk up to a "makers" table and he has three models and every one is EXACTLY the same as the other renditions of that "model" you kinda get the idea he is like a guy buying a kit at the hobby store!!!!!!!!!!! TAKE THAT!
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http://www.mayoknives.com
John 1:14
 
If the maker makes the knife in his shop HIMSELF its good.

Look where knives were 5 years ago. In the dark ages!

Nothing wrong with nmixing old and new.

Better knives (style and design) is the goal.



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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
MADD MAXX !
 
UW Mitch,

I currently have two blades on order, both fixed. One maker uses CNC and the other doesn't (as far as I know). Both makers admit that they have a two or three man shop. None of these things bother me. Both blades are being made to my specs and are going to be used...perhaps this makes a difference..I don't know.

Maybe because I have a knifemaker as a family friend I think differently (if he were 50 years younger, I think he would go for CNC).

If my only object was collecting I might think differently. but I do not collect customs....yet.
smile.gif


Steve-O
 
When it comes to knives that are intended to be used as tools, I think any fabrication process that yields superior results is viable, provided that the maker clearly states his methods. However, collectable “art” knives are a different story. In the art world, when a customer wants a unique, collectable work from the hand of an artiest, he buys an original one-of-a-kind painting. If all that’s desired is an inexpensive decoration, he’ll buy a (one of several hundred) litho. There’s never any confusion between the two. One is collectable handmade art, the other is a mass produced copy that costs a fraction of the former.

CNC can be used artistically to produce one-of-a-kind pieces like the works of Appleton and Walker, etc. They’ll spend many hours of programming and setup time to produce a single special design. Additionally, new custom OTF designs require CNC to maintain tight tolerances for the internal mechanism.

When I see a maker’s table displaying thirty or so folders, I know that I’m looking at production knives. The only differences between them are unintentional inconsistencies in the F&F and the use of a variety of interchangeable, cookie-cutter handle materials. A real handmade knife requires many hours to fabricate, and a true custom maker will be lucky if he has time to produce five to ten folders for a given show. When it comes to collectable knives, expediency is no substitute for unique design and meticulous hand craftsmanship. One of the main strengths of CNC is repeatability, but in a collectable knife, repeatability can be antithetical to the production of a unique artistic statement.

If you have one hand-engraved interframe folder, it’s a unique and valuable work of art. But what would happen if you programmed that exact engraved design to be cut hundreds (thousands!) of times into identical knives. You’d have the artistic equivalent of one of Camillus’ “Limited Engraved Remington Silver Bullets” or a “collectable” by the Franklin Mint. This is admittedly taking CNC phobia to the extreme, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see it happen.



[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 01-29-2001).]
 
Conceptually I'm w/Tom on this one although from a consumer point of view I don't really mind a CNC out-sourcer or in-sourcer as long as they can still do real custom work (or customer requested work) like variations in blade length, left handed versions, etc. If they can't then they aren't really "custom" makers in the first place--just mini-factories. If the extant of "customization" is limited to decorative variations alone like different handle material, jewels, etc due to heavy CNC reliance, then the so called custom maker is still just a mini-factory whether or not he out-sorces or in-sources.
 
CNC work is OK on a custom but I want to know how much work is done by hand, cnc in-house, and out-sourced before I buy or order. cnc adds precision and probably decreases cost of a knife but also robs it of a little of its "soul".
 
Booshank
CNC is NO different than using a template or a panagraph. Just older type of machining process's that came before these machines.

I have to agree with you on sizes and one offs, different blade lengths and embellishments.
As for in the shop well I feel that is different than out of the shop. Sorry!
Haveing someone make the parts for you is different than doing it all yourself.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
MADD MAXX !
 
Darrel:

Perhaps I should've been more explicit. Having been a machinist myself for several years, I'm well aware of what CNC is, however they are all just tools. Its a matter of whether the maker becomes a slave to the tool rather than the other way around. That is, is a maker so dependent on a CNC (out or in) that he can no longer produce true custom work as in one offs, etc. As far as out-sourcing is concerned it becomes a matter of degree. I seriously doubt most makers are producing everything in-house CNC or otherwise (screws, pivot pins, etc). At what point does authorship become questionable due to the degree of out-sourcing? Or even CNC in-sourcing? I'm sure most of us would agree that outsourcing blade grinding constituits a major faux paux. How 'bout handle blanks?

Also Sole Authorship can be quite different than "Custom" If sole authorship is the question then in-house production is probably a prerequisite. It may not necessarialy be true for "custom" but it probably helps.
 
Nothing wrong with CNC. I mean, would you want a Microtech-type knife where the handle was ground and filed to shape "by eye"? Of course not. The attraction of pieces like that is the flawless execution of a cool and complex design. A high-tech tactical piece almost requires CNC manufacturing just like techno music needs a computer or sequencer to sound precise and not sloppy. As someone who dabbles in such music I can state from experience that the machine does none of the actual composing, but rather plays back what I tell it too, with perfect timing and repeatability!

CNC allows one to realize designs that would be difficult and/or impossible to execute by hand. I think that people who diss CNC are of the same ignorant type that dismiss computer / electronic music as "non-music." The machines are a merely tools, a means to and end. The design is what is truly important IMO.
 
Boon
I agree now! As for farming out parts and blades I agree to. I just feel better doing most stuff in house. I do buy my pivots and thumbers . BUT I design them to my specs and change (update) them yearly most often.
I feel that cnc and cad can be used as a tool to build better knives. As for a slave ...if I was to do the same thing every day I would go insane. As for the one of a kind knives I think there great. I do about 6-20 a year .
I also try to make all of my model knives a bit different for one to the next.
I offer this to the customer on every knife.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
MADD MAXX !

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 01-29-2001).]
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mr44:
As someone who dabbles in such music I can state from experience that the machine does none of the actual composing, but rather plays back what I tell it too, with perfect timing and repeatability!
</font>
Click to expand...

Good metaphor. I guess it’s a matter of taste. I’ve been a professional musician for many years and I find that whenever drum machines and sequencers are used, the music is sterile, repetitious, and totally lacking in warmth and “heart.” “Perfect” repeatability kills the subtleties that give music its humanity. The best musicians avoid this technology. It’s usually the “dabblers” and “producers” who lack the skill and discipline to play an analog instrument that gravitate toward digital machinery as a substitute.

This is my concern with CNC in custom knives as well. “Perfect” repeatability often leads to sterile results. When a knife is made, one at a time, by a talented hand-craftsman, the results often have “heart.” Conversely, when a knife is cranked out by programmers and button pushers who lack the craftsman’s skill, you end up with hundreds of identical knives that are as sterile as a Microtech.

Admittedly, the above is overstated, but I think it’s a genuine concern. Hand craftsmanship is slowly dying out in our plastic, mass-produced digital culture.




[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 01-29-2001).]
 
Guys: What started the CNC debate was the revelation that several known makiers were using CNC and not disclosing that info to their customers. (read that as "lying" in my book).
This is an ethics/integrity/honesty problem.
Remember, unless you're making your own steel, you're benefitting from computer controlled equipment-all the stuff that rolls out barstock at a mill is NC machinery.
Personally, the use of grinding jigs bothers me much more than NC parts finished up with real hand work. When people admire the grind, do you think the maker says "Yeah, I use a jig to do that" Hell no!!
He smiles and let's the customer believe he has actual talent.
What seems appropriste to me is simply an honest accounting of the facts.

RJ
 
Thank you for your insights.

I know that many argue that CNC takes the custom out of custom, because of it ability to be highly accurate and highly repeatable.

But that doesn't mean that one HAS to be a slave to their CNC. I have never made a knife, nor operated a CNC...so take these opinions with a grain of salt. It seems to me that CNC allows the bed to follow intricate paths, that one would not be able to follow with a manual mill (which is why I assume that most profiling is done with a band saw and belt grinder). However, with more complex folders, often times complex pocketing is required (like on Ken Onion's "Midtech" Boa's).

I think that as long as a maker is up front about their process, there should be no problem. Larry Davidson was very up front about the fact that he uses a 3-Axis CNC to make many of his parts...he was also very willing to make left handed or otherwise modified versions of existing designs...it just requires him to rewrite some (or most) of his machine code. What's not "custom" about that? If a customer says they hate the idea that CNC would be used on a knife, but they really like the makers designs, a custom knife maker will be able to fire up the bandsaw and make a knife that way. For using knives I think CNC can allow a maker to offer a knife with tighter tolerances, at a more reasonable price. Not too long ago when the electric saw came out how many people had problems with that over handsaws? Seems to me that CNC is another new tool (albeit expensive) that technology has to offer.

I agree with Tom that if a customer walks up to a makers table and sees 50 exactly identical knives, it'd be hard to call them custom. I would hope that in such a case the maker is differentiating them from his fully "handmade" knives, and has them priced accordingly.

Again, I've never made a knife, nor operated a CNC...but these are the conclusion I've drawn.

~Mitch


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My Hobby Page
 
I think the music analogy hit it. The problem that many seem to have with CNC is that it lets people who don't have the traditional knife making skills to potentially make a knife. You are no longer a knifemaker or musician you are a programmer! This is also a highly skilled task, yet many have a probelem with it. If the knife is represented accurately and you know how it was made I don't see a problem.


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~ JerryO ~

Cogito Cogito Ergo Cogito Sum
 
Here are my 2 cents.
Before 1997 I made all my knives by hand, the only thing done outside of my shop was heat-treating. Then I started getting my liners, bolsters and blades laser cut. I should thank Larry Chew for that because he is the one that pushed me into it. By having my parts laser cut, it relieved the frustration of making sure that I ground all my handles to the same shape. It did save me some time on the bandsaw, but all I was getting were blank parts and there are a lot more operations to complete the knife. IMHO I don't care if you own the CNC or farm the work out, just as long as you are honnest with the customers. Also, your price should reflect the techniques you are using to make this knife. If a knife was completely done on CNC and you are charging $1000+ I have a problem with that.
In the case of Michael Walker, I have been in his shop, the only CNC machine he has is a wire. The rest is hand done. The amount of time he puts in a knife makes his prices look cheap. If you are going to make an art knife, make it by hand. That is the true skill of a knifemaker. If you need to make a living at it and be competitive, you need the CNC.
Thanks,
Allen Elishewitz
 
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