zdp sharpening problems

T

triz neena

Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
86
Hello,

I am travelling for a few months at the moment and am carrying a delica zdp and a small vintage carbonundrum (spelling ?) sharpener. I have watched videos on youtube and read several articles on how to sharpen but am having a lot of trouble.

I sharpen one side until there is a burr, sharpen the other side until burr again, repeating, removing the burr, honing the edge, removing burr and honing again. after all this it comes out blunt as a butter knife. Any help?

I was considering selling it and getting an easier steel to learn/practise how to sharpen, maybe a griptilian with 154cm or the ritter grip with s30v. Any advise on this?
 
ZDP-189 seems to be rather finicky about getting an edge. The burr is usually small and tenacious. Often in trying to remove the burr, I end up breaking it off rather than grinding it away, leaving a blunt edge. It takes a rather light touch to get it right. To me, ZDP-189 feels like it is just sliding across the stone, which will sucker me into using too much pressure. I have to force myself to take a lot of light strokes instead of a few heavy ones. It doesn't feel like the light strokes are doing anything, but they are. When you get it right, that steel gets a wicked edge that lasts a long time, but it took me quite a while to get it right. You might be better off with something easier to sharpen while you are on the road. On the other hand, if you master ZDP, you'll likely be able to handle anything else with ease. Good luck.
 
triz neena said:
Hello,

I am travelling for a few months at the moment and am carrying a delica zdp and a small vintage carbonundrum (spelling ?) sharpener. I have watched videos on youtube and read several articles on how to sharpen but am having a lot of trouble.

I sharpen one side until there is a burr, sharpen the other side until burr again, repeating, removing the burr, honing the edge, removing burr and honing again. after all this it comes out blunt as a butter knife. Any help?

I was considering selling it and getting an easier steel to learn/practise how to sharpen, maybe a griptilian with 154cm or the ritter grip with s30v. Any advise on this?
Click to expand...

ZDP189 easy to sharpen as any other steel around.

This is not a steel problem. You just need to learn sharpening, otherwise you will have to sell other knives as well. This way I sharpen all steel to hair whittling sharp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP9tII6Tp7s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TscN9h-1xQ

You doing it right, I think you round edge while removing burr.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I recently got a Delica in ZDP, my first as well... I think Yablanowitz sums it up nicely.. Light pressure (and patience) near the end otherwise I think the burr tends to get "pushed" back and forth instead of being ground off
 
Have a ZDP- 189 endura and finally decided to put a convex edge on it... am much happier with it as it will now cut almost anything like a hot knife through butter....and did it with the sandpaper and mouse pad method plus the leather stop.. so location shouldn't be a problem. and too maintain is really easy... just strop it occasionally.. :D
 
Thanks for the replies to all. I will try to be gentler with the sharpening. One last question, I remove the burr by cutting a piece of wood. Should i just skip this and go from sharpening to sharpening lightly and then to honing?

The video I chose to copy the technique was this if it helps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuOlGGl97dI&feature=related

cheers


yablanowitz said:
ZDP-189 seems to be rather finicky about getting an edge. The burr is usually small and tenacious. Often in trying to remove the burr, I end up breaking it off rather than grinding it away, leaving a blunt edge. It takes a rather light touch to get it right. To me, ZDP-189 feels like it is just sliding across the stone, which will sucker me into using too much pressure. I have to force myself to take a lot of light strokes instead of a few heavy ones. It doesn't feel like the light strokes are doing anything, but they are. When you get it right, that steel gets a wicked edge that lasts a long time, but it took me quite a while to get it right. You might be better off with something easier to sharpen while you are on the road. On the other hand, if you master ZDP, you'll likely be able to handle anything else with ease. Good luck.
Click to expand...
 
triz neena said:
Thanks for the replies to all. I will try to be gentler with the sharpening. One last question, I remove the burr by cutting a piece of wood. Should i just skip this and go from sharpening to sharpening lightly and then to honing?

The video I chose to copy the technique was this if it helps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuOlGGl97dI&feature=related

cheers
Click to expand...

This way you are not removing it but tearing it out, breaking it, making terrible edge! Do not do this, removing burr is gentle procedure and it disappear itself on smaller abrasive. Be just gentle and patient.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Last edited:
You might get away with burr removing like this on lower then 58 hrc steels? I don't know. i mostly give it a 2-3 times swap on a fine ceramic in 70-80 degree angle.

I agree that ZDP is a PITA . I tried sharpening a friends knive on Ceramics and it felt like it was slipping on the stones. However i now am moving from 204 set to free hand just for fun and getting better results from eye to stone sharpening as 204 is limited to 30 -40 included edges. Productionknives don't always come in ideal edge angles... Tenasity and Diamond coated stones might be better on high hrc scale blades.

If i see a slightly shadow on the other side i'm sharpening and feel a little resistence with my thumb i in most cases can change grit or blade side.

;)
 
nozh2002 said:
This way you are not removing it but tearing it out, breaking it, making terrible edge! Do not do this, removing burr is gentle procedure and it disappear itself on smaller abrasive. Be just gentle and patient.
Click to expand...
IMO this can't be stressed enough when it comes to removing the burr and putting the final edge on any knife. It may seem counterintuitive that we need to baby our tough, hard-working blades like this, but consider for a moment what incredible stresses are placed on the steel when you're dealing with a fine edge that's best measured in microns. In much actual cutting, the way the knife is used and the material being cut itself acts to balance forces from side to side and spread them out along a large portion of the edge; not so in some of the things we do when sharpening, such as using V-rod sharpeners or trying to remove a burr aggressively.

Like Vassili says, be very gentle and patient, and you'll be rewarded with an edge that is not only sharper but much more durable. :)
 
Just resharpened my Yuna with ZDP 189 in 20-25 min after whittling aluminum.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
When you get home, get yourself a Sharpmaker. Designed by Sal Glesser for Spyderco knives. Works like charm. ;)
 
nozh2002 said:
This way you are not removing it but tearing it out, breaking it, making terrible edge! Do not do this, removing burr is gentle procedure and it disappear itself on smaller abrasive. Be just gentle and patient.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

ah ok, no wonder i have a terrible edge.. i will try and make a little box thing for my stone.. and purchase some leather. Any substitutes to this chromo that you're using, my travels will take until mid november...

As i said earlier, im using a small vintage carborundum, think its just silicon carbide, size is about 3 by 3 by 15 cm and I use olive oil for lubricant. (pretty ghetto...) You recon I should be ok, maybe not hair whitling but still good using your technique?

Lastly, after you polish your edge and its hair whitling sharp, how often do you have to do the full sharpening procedure? Do you just touch up the edge using the leather and Chromo every day after using the knife?

thanks again for the link to your videos and help.
 
triz neena said:
ah ok, no wonder i have a terrible edge.. i will try and make a little box thing for my stone.. and purchase some leather. Any substitutes to this chromo that you're using, my travels will take until mid november...

As i said earlier, im using a small vintage carborundum, think its just silicon carbide, size is about 3 by 3 by 15 cm and I use olive oil for lubricant. (pretty ghetto...) You recon I should be ok, maybe not hair whitling but still good using your technique?

Lastly, after you polish your edge and its hair whitling sharp, how often do you have to do the full sharpening procedure? Do you just touch up the edge using the leather and Chromo every day after using the knife?

thanks again for the link to your videos and help.
Click to expand...

You should check sharpness record thread - I asked people there to describe how they sharpen - in general they can do this keeping stone and knife in the air to make strokes very gentle:

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/SharpeningRecords.html

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=554632

Hair whittling sharpness is just indication that edge is not rolled out by polishing (usual mistake - result of too much pressure) and it will be lost once you whittle wood. I did not resharpen very often, but I did not use knife on regular basis really - I cut some aluminum recently and of course had to resharpen knife after that, but in general it is not like every month - depends on use. I am not really knife user but hobbyist...

I did not touch up daily, because I am too lazy and also I am not sure that it will make any good - I rather use extra fine stone anyway because it maintain flat on the edge because it is hard surface, leather tend to round it, it is OK to polish flat, but it probably will not make flat - it bends.

I keep one hair whittling sharp (BM710HS) for cutting out splinters only - it can whittle top layer of skin without drawing blood so I use it to take splinters away.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Dog of War said:
It may seem counterintuitive that we need to baby our tough, hard-working blades like this, but consider for a moment what incredible stresses are placed on the steel when you're dealing with a fine edge that's best measured in microns.
Click to expand...
If you're really good at sharpening, it will be about 0.5 microns, according to Verhoeven... ;) :eek:
 
triz neena said:
Thanks for the replies to all. I will try to be gentler with the sharpening. One last question, I remove the burr by cutting a piece of wood. Should i just skip this and go from sharpening to sharpening lightly and then to honing?

The video I chose to copy the technique was this if it helps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuOlGGl97dI&feature=related

cheers
Click to expand...

That is actually an excellent video, though it seems to be a copy of the Murray Carter Video, but I don't know if they are somehow connected. Pulling off the burr like that is perfectly fine, especially when just going to finer grits doesn't help (I have done so when having a really stubburn burr, which ZDP-189 doesn't produce by the way), but you have to realize that you are taking a step back this way. You will still have lots of work left to do afterwards, you will have to re-establlish the very fine edge, since the burr got torn off like Vassili and DoW have said. After this you should approach that fine edge more carefully using few strokes between checking the edge. And you can see it in the video how he does it.

You also have to realize that this video is the second part of the sharpening process (which he says in the beginning), AFTER you have been using the rough stone to cut in the edge. Now taking a wild guess, your stone is probably around 500 grit, which is the grit size of a modern FINE SiC stone, yours could be lower. If this video follows the Murray Carter video, which seem very likely, the ROUGH stone he is using is a 1000 grit stone, and the stone he is working on in this video is a 6000 grit stone. That is a world of difference.
 
Very helpful reply. What sharpening stone do you think i should buy and of what material, Id ideally like to carry something the size i have to maintain an edge as I travel a lot. I've read in articles that sharpening with very course stone to leave an edge thats not like a razor but more like microscopic serations seems to work out well (supposedly tough and easy to maintain).?The knife is mostly used for cutting fruit, bread, other food, a bit of wood, ropes.. It would be fun and interesting to have such a hair whittling edge but if it does not last then its not so useful to have to sharpen every day!

Sorry for so many questions but its a bit confusing, all the sharpening techniques and types of stones..

HoB said:
That is actually an excellent video, though it seems to be a copy of the Murray Carter Video, but I don't know if they are somehow connected. Pulling off the burr like that is perfectly fine, especially when just going to finer grits doesn't help (I have done so when having a really stubburn burr, which ZDP-189 doesn't produce by the way), but you have to realize that you are taking a step back this way. You will still have lots of work left to do afterwards, you will have to re-establlish the very fine edge, since the burr got torn off like Vassili and DoW have said. After this you should approach that fine edge more carefully using few strokes between checking the edge. And you can see it in the video how he does it.

You also have to realize that this video is the second part of the sharpening process (which he says in the beginning), AFTER you have been using the rough stone to cut in the edge. Now taking a wild guess, your stone is probably around 500 grit, which is the grit size of a modern FINE SiC stone, yours could be lower. If this video follows the Murray Carter video, which seem very likely, the ROUGH stone he is using is a 1000 grit stone, and the stone he is working on in this video is a 6000 grit stone. That is a world of difference.
Click to expand...
 
For travel, I would suggest a DMT Diafold Coarse/Fine pocket hone.
http://www.knivesplus.com/DMT-FWFC.html
It is an excellent tool which carries easily in a pocket, has both coarse grit to cut bevels faster, and fine grit to give a smoother edge which still retains good bite. It can be used dry, or lubricated with water. It costs more than a carborundum stone, but if you keep your pressure light it will last virtually forever, even if you drop it on a concrete floor.
 
It is possible to get a shaving edge directly from very coarse grit and the edge is a terrific slicer, but it requires IMHO a lot of experience and patients. There are several people here on the forums, who do it routinely and easily, I can do it but have a hard time with it. The quick way around it is to follow with a loaded strop. You can make one by gluing some scrap piece of leather on a wooden base. Longer gives you a longer stroke but 2x8" is perfectly usable and travels well. To load, you can either use CrO or you get some diamond slurry or grit.

As a travel set up, you will hardly require a coarse stone at all if you maintain your edges regularly as you only need it to set the edge initially. So a 1000 (give or take a couple 100) grit stone and a strop will work well. Waterstones are nice, but diamond and ceramic stones are easier to maintain. A 1200 (fine) DMT stone or a gray Spyderco ceramic would be a good choice. For the strop a piece of cardboard works but a 2x8 piece of MDF board with some leather on it is much nicer and won't break the bank. You can use both sides on the MDF, either for two different compounds or one side without the leather the other with leather (you can use the compound straight on the MDF as well). This setup gives you several options and it will allow you to get really good results.

However, as a pure traveling setup, the Spyderco Sharpmaker is probably the easiest option for you (which you can also supplement with a strop). Mine has travel many thousand miles with me.
 
Ok, thanks, i will keep my current stone for now as theyre not so easy to get in europe, and will try the leather on mdf with CrO. Thanks for the help!
 
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