Zen

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ghostsix

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Zen owes something to The Tao and The Buddha. Simply the thing is more visceral cognition than book learning, Nonetheless,there are guides for those who need them.Those who have proven iniative in combat can disregard. The four noble truths are:A special transmmission outside the Sricpture; No dependence on words or letters;Direct pointing at the Mind of man;Seeing into one`s nature and the attainment of Buddhahood.Zen has a sense of humor.I sharpen the cho edges for the blood letting.I can assure you that my friend was rather shocked.A small prick.big deal.I am not a good Buddhist, yet I expect no flack from those who know less than I.

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The finger pointing at the moon is not yet the moon and thunder is not yet rain...
 
The literature of Near Death/Out of Body experiences is replete with instances of those who have "connected" with the ineffable and whose subsequent attitude/style of life has been changed dramatically.

Alone in the middle of an Indian Reservation is not a safe place to be if you wish to maintain your cherished preconceptions.
 
Describing the moon by pointing your finger at it only describes your finger not the moon.

------------------I get it.Overcomplcating it will deny you enlightenment.This a thinking thing.


[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 01 September 1999).]
 
What is the sound of one hand slapping me silly?
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-Dave
 
Uh... Oh yeah.
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So can anyone answer either one of those questions for me?
wink.gif


-Dave

------------------
"Smooth Bastard..."
 
Isn't Zen German? I coulda swore I've heard "Fust ve do zis, und ZEN ve do zat!".

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OK, puns aside...my father was Buddhist, a late-in-life convert to a Japanese type with initials "NSA", something like "Nishchen Shoshu Association" although I'm certain I mangled the name pretty bad.

In any case, "good morals" were a key part of advancement on the "wheel", along with meditation, some chants, etc. Same goes for almost all forms, including all the Tibetan/Indian/Himalayan variants. Once my research showed this to be the case, I had full respect for Pop's beliefs although I didn't share them. Similarly, I think the Dali Lama is one of the best specimens of humanity currently walking around although I don't share his beliefs. He is personally a man of great morals and as a religious leader promotes the same through word and deed.

Alone among all Buddhist variations, Zen seems to have divorced "morality" from "advancement", if that makes sense. In Bushido times, one could be a stone-cold killer and still be a "proper Zen devotee", so long as one wielded the sword or whatever with a proper "clarity of thought and purpose". Doing something as a meditation form was worthwhile, with no real "moral difference" seen between flower arranging and chopping somebody to bits.

Sorry, but...I have a problem with that. I don't hate Zen devotees but I don't have a whole lotta respect for that path either, I wouldn't date or marry one and I'd advise any kids I ever have against it.

(Sidenote: ol' Pop had Christianity beaten out of him by his teachers in the Churches of England and Scotland, along with his left-handedness. His handwriting REALLY sucked. I don't have a lot of use for violent superstitions being wielded on children, either...)

Jim March
 
Jim,

I'm afraid most religions have had their share of cold-blooded killers.

A religion simply provides a framework within which people grow. I have met moral, and immoral, and amoral adherents of every religion I have come in contact with.

But each group of people professing this religion or that religion has had something to teach me, and there is not one I would warn my children away from. I am trying to give my kids the equipment they need to make their own moral choices.

Isn't it a bit of a cop out to say: "That bad religion made him do it."
 
As a matter of fact, have not been home long enough to look at the book I got while out of town today:

THE ART OF HAPPINESS / A Handbook for Living

His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Howard C. Cutler, M.D.

ISBN # 1-57322-111-2

Will let you know my reactions to it. Rusty
 
Howard, as I noted in reference to my dad being abused for left-handedness, "twisted religion" is all too common.

Where Zen seems to go that "extra mile" is that it seems to have been concieved as a "warrior's faith" with a deliberate attempt put in to eliminate morality from the equation.

That's a bit much. Now granted, individual strains of other religions have probably caused more outright death and chaos, especially Catholocism at it's heyday. That was mainly a product of religion getting WAY too mixed up in politics, to the point where "lack of faith/heresy" because identical to "rebel against the gov't". (Sidenote: it's too bad half the Koran is a recipe for running a government because Mohammed became "Mayor" of a decent-size town. If you've ever wondered why Islam tends to want to mix gov't and religion, that's why...)

But it's possible for a faith (other than Islam) to outgrow that "gov't connection". A designed-in lack of moral guidance at the very core of what's going on is, to me, a big problem even in the modern world, where religious killings have been relegated to a few insane nations and some cults. Zen is NOT a cult, and today probably hasn't been even a minor a factor in too many deaths over the last few decades. *Maybe* some right-wing Japanese fanatics, they've still got a few morons running around.

I just don't trust a faith with no moral core whatsoever.

Jim March
 
Jim,

My impression of the men and women who practice Zen Buddhism is somewhat different from yours. When living and practicing with them I came to realize that Zen is firmly within the Mahayana tradition. Compassion for all beings is stressed. To quote from the Bodhisattva Ceremony:

All my ancient twisted karma
From beginningless greed, hate, and delusion
Born through body, speech, and mind
I now fully avow.
…
Beings are without end. I vow to save them.
Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them.
The Dharmagate is endless, I vow to enter it.
Buddha’s way is unsurpassible, I vow to become it.
Click to expand...

These don’t strike me as the words of a people without a moral compass. From whence do your impressions of the men and women practicing Zen come?
 
(Sidenote: it's too bad half the Koran is a recipe for running a government because Mohammed became "Mayor" of a decent-size town. If you've ever wondered why Islam tends to want to mix gov't and religion, that's why...)
Click to expand...

Is that true?

I don't know much about Buddhism Zen - so I prefer to reserve my comments - any attempt to do that only shows my failure in understanding the true indepth meaning of Buddhism Zen spirit!

Islam is a way of life either for an individual or a family or a community or a siciety or a country. Islam is a "DEEN" - the word RELIGION actually is just the nearest translation to that Arabic word. Islam teachs man how to deal with Allah (The Creator etc.), himself, human, non-human and nature.

A Moslem must think, talk, hear, see, behave and act as a Moslem. As a Moslem, of course that person can not think as a Moslem but talk as a Hindu, act as a Taoist and behave as a Buddhist!

Islam gives guidence on how to be the slave of Allah, the member or head of a family, the member or leader of a community, the member or leader of a society, the citizen or the ruler of a country, the owner af a land, the member of all huminity, the part of the nature etc.

Of course - a Moslem will never seperate his way of life (thinking, talking, doing, writing and ruling) from Islam. Each component of his life is to be coloured in the same manner!

My English is not that good - hopefully Pakcik Bill & other forumites can understand Islam as I try to understand other belief - OK!
 
Zen is more a tool than a religion.It is a valuable life tool.The Tao that can be described, is not the true Tao.My Great, Great Aunt was a devout Luthern.She practiced Zen Buddhaism.There is no conflict.It`s just another way to explain the world and our part in it.Oddly enough, it helps explain particle physics and qountom mechanics.The higer vehical, you may explore if you wish.I recommend it.As with Jesus,the founder never intended what happened.I`m old Asia hand.If you want to see a truly strange interptation, check out the Cao Dai in RVN.

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Howard, I may be wrong re: Zen and that quote is certainly interesting. You're suggesting that the Bushido-era emphasis on "clarity of thought and purpose even in mid-fight" may have been a "twisting" of something better? Errr...in other words, they deliberately ignored a "moral core" to the system?

Sigh. That figures...that'd put 'em right on the same par as every other "abused religion", such as the various Christian stupidities. Which weren't limited to Catholics, BTW, Salem was a purely Protestant disaster.

Mohd, my understanding is that there's an absolutely complete set of laws in the Koran for governing people on Earth in the here-and-now. It covers everything from "when is it legally daylight" (you can tell a black thread from a white) to criminal justice, welfare, *everything*. Get enough people together in a given nation who share the same brand of Islam, you get inevitable pressure to institute "Islamic law" as based on the Koran.

That's why there's a civil war going on in Algeria, a secular gov't is trying to "suppress" that tendency. Turkey is the same way: there was a recent uproar when an elected lady legislature tried to take her seat with a head-covering on, they threw her out for wearing an obviously Islam-related article to the legislature where such is prohibited. Turkey does all kinds of repression of what we'd call "freedom of expression" stuff in a desperate attempt to keep Islam out of all gov't functions. Why? Because they know any mostly-Islamic nation will undergo pressure to mix politics and religion. See also Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, many others...the worst lately is the Taliban of Afganistan, they're just plain fanatical lunatics.

Iraq avoided it mainly because they were split between Shiite and Sunni variants with a few Christians thrown in too...Islam is still majority but neither of the two main splinters is predominent. Iran is mostly Shiite, Saudi Arabia mostly Sunni so they each established "Islamic law" to varying degrees.

The Koran isn't unique in having a "gov't blueprint" contained in a religious text. The *Bible* has such a blueprint too, in the first five books. Christians almost universally believe that Jesus "replaced all that" in effect and use it only as a "general guide to how God thinks"...Jews around the world realize that as minorities they can't impose the "Law of Moses" on anybody, but in Israel today there's an element that wants to bring it back in it's entirety. They're in the minority, but they get pretty vocal once in a while...the gov't recently performed a public works project through the Sabbath, protesters showed up by the busload.

Jim March
 
As the bumper sticker on my truck says:

"GOD, PROTECT ME FROM YOUR FOLLOWERS!"

Men of good will of any faith have much to teach/learn from one another. As long as they apply that knowledge to discipline of themselves, and walk in humility, they grow.

Too many, however, use religion as a club to pass judgement on others with while failing to practice and live by it's precepts and disciplines themselves. That is witchcraft.

Perhaps I should modify the bumper sticker to read "GOD, PROTECT ME FROM YOUR *PUTATIVE* FOLLOWERS!"

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 01 September 1999).]
 
I remember a conversation with my Catholic mother-in-law. (God rest her soul.) When she found out I wasn't a Christian she asked me "How can I be sure you won't sneak up on me in the night and cut my throat?" When I asked her if she was sure that everyone professing to be a Christian would not cut her throat, she thought about it for a while and then answered that she was not sure. We finally agreed that her safest course of action would be to watch me closely for a while till she got a good feel for the rules I was operating under.

I kind of miss that old curmudgeon.
 
I like that bumper sticker, too, and I am in complete agreement with Rusty.

Extend courtesy to others who may have a different belief system than yours.

It pleases me to see that we are able to discuss our views on very serious considerations without lowering ourselves to attack because of differing viewpoints.

I have always said this is a great forum simply because the people who visit here are great themselves. The manner in which you have expressed yourselves in this thread simply bears this out.

I have great respect for all of you.

Uncle Bill

 
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