Zen

Bill,

I'm a yoga practitioner (and no I don't do strange poses) and also a Christian. Like you I also had my share of drug induced 'ecstasy'. I can testify that the said ecstasy is different from the true 'state of awareness.' It is also called 'samadhi' in yoga scriptures, by allowing the Kundalini to flow up to your Crown Chakra through your spinal column. Samadhi for me is more colorful, and without negative side effects. And yes, this kind of experience will last, and get better, unlike the drug induced one which require you to add an ever increasing dose of drugs. Samadhi could only be reached by perseverance, and in most cases won't happen instantaneously.

I'm sorry about the yoga jargons, but I believe the said process (the rising of Kundalini) is quite common in various scriptures of Eastern religions (though with different names and terms), so many people who practice these religions will find it familiar.

I wanted to explain this more clearly, but I'm affraid I won't find the words to describe it (besides, my English sucks!). I just want to say that I agree with Bill.


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Reynaert
 
Hello Reynaert:

I am very pleased to see you post here because you learned from experience the same thing I learned. It is good to have confirmation.

I practiced several forms of Yoga along the way, including Hatha, so I am familiar with all the terms you used.

Just in case you have been here and I have not welcomed you I now welcome you to this forum and hope you will become a regular.

What has all this to do with khukuris?

Everything.

Uncle Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Martino (edited 05 September 1999).]
 
What I find interesting is that the National Opinion Research Center has done studies which indicate that the actual practice and leadership of Catholicism is not carried on by those functionaries in the Vatican, nor yet the diocesan priests, nor even the officers of the congregation.

It appears that the leadership comes out of the small percentage (8%? 12%? 15%?) who admit to ecstatic experiences and resultantly have changed the behaviors in their lives. And thus show others the way by their living it.

I'd hypothesize that the findings apply to any and all religions. The few who have found harmony, walk in it quietly and imperfectly, and thus profoundly affect all whom they come in contact with.

It is going from an emptiness, a "black hole in your soul" that sucks in everything to a radiance, a fire of warmth and love in that very same previously malignantly empty place within you.

Next time I'll try to slice the balogna a little thinner.
 
:
Rusty:
Rez steak is good any way you slice it.I even like it torn off and eaten with dry saltines.

I have to agree with Uncle also.
I have been to the Native American Church and ate the Peyote.I have had several talks with the Unequa (Great Being) while under the influence of hashiash and some powerful Oklahoma marijuana.The problem with that is I could never recall the experience later.I just knew that it was and was always aggravated because I couldn't recall it.

I have gotten much more benefit by being what appears to be alone playing my Flute while watching the South Dakota Sun rise in the east and/or doing the same while watching the Sun go down in Oklahoma.
I am grateful for the things that are revealed and the experiences granted while in Ceremony.The greatest thing
is being able to remember
For me it is like happiness and comes from within.

One of the best physical experiences of sitting alone on a hilltop for any number of days without food or water is the absolute total gratefuilness of that first drink of water that you are given at the correct time.
I have never taken water for granted since.

My grandfather used to tell me a story of a man that went into a bar and threw a $10.00 bill down and told the bartender,"Give me your best in the house." The bartender went to the cooler and poured the man a tall cool glass of water,took it over to the man,set it down and pocketed the $10.00.The man who ordered was furious and said."I told you I wanted the best drink in the house." The bartender said."I heard you and gave you just that.Water IS the best drink in the house."

It took me 50 some years to really know what my grandfather meant.
I still know nothing.

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>>>>---¥vsa---->®
The civilized man sleeps behind locked doors in the city while the naked savage sleeps (with a knife) in a open hut in the jungle.

 
Two addendums:

The sensation of "never could fully remember the event afterwards" with regards "drug induced ecstatic spiritual states" is one I can fully comprehend.

Remember how I said I hit it twice? Well, the first I never remembered, still don't *directly* recall. But the second time I remembered, plus while in this state the second time I REMEMBERED THE FIRST!

Weird! And since I can remember the second, I remember remembering the first.

Ohhhhkay.

I studied "fairly hardcore self hypnosis" for a while, although I was interested in bodily control versus anything "spiritual". That was when I did a lot of reading on ALL the various "altered states" and saw distinct patterns of similarity across many paths and traditions.

Now, Bill isn't the only one to be very sure that getting there without drugs is preferrable, in contrast to Tim Leary for example. While I feel that the connections between the "drug version" and the "pure version" are worth noting, it's also important to ask these cute questions:

"If there's half a dozen different ways to hit a major state of "heightened spirituality" and an infinite number of combinations, how did our brains end up hardwired for such states? Better yet, who rigged us up that way?"

Jim March
 
Many thanks for much valued input, Rusty and Yvsa.

Jim, I know a little monastery in the Himalayas that has an unlit room waiting for you. In that room is every answer to every question you have -- maybe even the wiring diagram! Let me know when you are ready to go and I will make reservations for you.

Uncle Bill
 
For those interested in the non- chemical route to revelation, Richard Foster, a Quaker, cites the Christian disciplines as being as follows:

I: The Inward Disciplines
a)Meditation
b)Prayer
c)Fasting
d)Study
II: The Outward Disciplines
e)Simplicicty
f)Solitude
g)Submission
h)Service
III: The Corporate Disciplines
i)Confession
j)Worship
k)Guidance
l)Celebration

These are, of course, leave out those of the Jewish Traditions, such as the Dancing of the Chasidim, and of the Native American worship in the round and other dances.

Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, or other religious or spiritual disciplines are a complete mystery, my comparative religion classes having been over 30 years ago and my understanding of the Upanishads having been that of a teenager.

Perhaps tomorrow I'll begin HHDL's The Art of Happiness ( HHDL still reminds me of the blood panel my doctor cusses me out over: High Density Lipoproteins, Low Density Lipoproteins ).

PS - If Nepal seems a bit distant Jim, I can take you out on the Rez where the Ghost Dance originated -



[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 05 September 1999).]
 
All the religions you all seem to be so enchanted with, are lies. There is a mountain of lies, but only one Truth, and He is Jesus the Christ.
The thing that differentiates true Christianity from Zen Buddhism and all religions, and indeed makes Christianity NOT a religion, is the fact that religions are mans attempt to reach God, or attain some sort of supposed perfection. True Holy Bible Christianity is just the opposite - it has nothing to do with works. Man could NEVER through supposed good works or meditation, or whatever, even come close to be able to be in the presence of the true and living God, or become enlightened. God tells us in the Holy Bible to meditate, but he doesn't mean to empty our minds and open ourselves up to spiritual attack. We meditate on the Word of God. I myself spent many years involved in the martial arts, and in Taoism and Buddhism - and even in Zen Buddhism. What a waste of time those "isms" were. You can have all the "isms" you want, just tell me one thing, what has Buddha ever done for you? Since Buddhism is a non-theistic religion, you probably don't even believe in God. I know I didn't. However there was one thing I couldn't ignore: All the religions created by man have sacred scriptures, don't they? Why do you think there are no prophecies that came out true in all the writings on Buddhism, or any of the other false religions? The fact is that Satan, the enemy of your soul, who inspired those lies, doesn't know the future - ONLY the true and living God of the Holy Bible does. That is what without a doubt confirms and proves that the Holy Bible is the Truth. It is FULL of prophcies that throughout history, for thousands of years, have been fulfilled. There CANNOT be SPECIFIC prophecies in the literature of your false religions or beliefs. If there were it would be obvious to you that they are false doctrines of devils.
I myself appreciate martial arts, martial artists, and of course, Kukris, BUT to think that a person needs to open themself up to these false religions or beliefs, to be skilled or even become a so-called master at these war arts, is a lie. I am sorry if I've offended you, but as they say, the truth hurts.
IF YOU WANT A TRUE ZEN EXPERIENCE, READ: JOHN 3:16-20.
 
In my study of western-type "scientific" (note quotes) hypnosis, they had specific terms for the various types of methods to drop somebody into a trance. One was "distraction", which seems strongly related to the "dance and excitement" forms of spirituality practiced by the Quakers, Santeria and other African traditions, Native Americans, etc.

In it's purest form, you overload the hypnotic subject with as many different types of stimulus as possible, but then add a single clear "message" that the subject "focuses in on", or rather "locks onto". That "message" is what gets driven in.

I don't know if this type of "imprinting" is commonly used in spiritual paths. But I can tell you where else it is in use, and has been used:

Ever been to a major casino lately? You've got lights, bells, music, under-dressed ladies, mirrors, all kinds of crazy crap. And then stuck onto the slot machines are little "messages" in absolutely plain writing such as "The more you play, the more you win".

They're trying to get your brain going in a million directions, and then lock onto the "simple message". It doesn't always work of course, but it works often enough to make those cheap little mottos worth the investment. At the craps or blackjack tables I'd be willing to bet that the "focus" people latch onto is the dice, cards or whatever...they become a "mental refuge" from the general chaos in the room.

Now let's take another example: Hitler's rallies. He had elaborate stage sets, lighting, marching armies and bands, total chaos going...and then after a while of that, he personally stood up and delivered a clear, simple and powerful message.

Sound familiar?

There's obviously no spiritual links here, but the "mechanics" are similar to a number of spiritual paths.

So...you'll all have to understand if I hold off on that lovely suite in the Himalayas.
Because in addition to "distraction", they also talked about "isolation".

Jim March
 
Sigh...Hansen, the fact is you can find groups of Quakers, Shakers or any of several other kinds of Christians that basically get "loud, noisy and excited". You can then go to Haiti and find Voodoo ceremonies with exactly the same level of excitement, music, dancing, fervor, etc.

In both cases, a certain percentage of the parishoners will have "sudden deep spiritual feelings".

I personally believe the similarities are more likely due to "how the human brain is wired" versus any negative OR positive spiritual force.

Jim March
 
Hansen, I attended a pilot`s forum last Aug. where the instructer did not get his laugh. He pulled out a book and said,("I have a book of poetry here and I`m not afraid to read it")! Now, I have a Bible and I`m not afraid to quote, it. The basic ideas are the same, if you know where to look. It would require some background, of course. I did not intend to teach a class here, only to open some ideas, and I have. They are not in conflict. Zen is not a religion,in that it has no scripture,no doctrine,no priesthood and no well defined Higher Power. I do not understand Zen or Buddhism, and yet I do. No one understands Buddhism. As there is so much interest, I started Zen 11. Maybe Uncle remembers the statments and the eight truths the Noble Paths etc, The first is: All life is suffering.There is a way to alleviate. suffering,etc. I don`t remember. I do not have to. In fact it is contraindicated to, once you have it.

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A(l)ssalaamu-'alaa-man-ittaba'a-(a)lhudaa!

There many paths to the top of the mountain, but only one summet.
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ghost - I guess your phrase is a very common one!

Say a person is striving his chosen path and he reach the summit - the problems are:

1) How do that person knows for sure that his chosen path is the one that will lead him to the correct summit?
2) Is the summit that he reached is actually the correct summit?

then ...

All the religions you all seem to be so enchanted with, are lies.
Click to expand...

Hansen - everybody can say that! I think it is very much viser to convert your phrase to a question form such as:

IS MY RELIGION A TRUE ONE?

or:

IS THERE ANY LIES IN MY RELIGION?

So ...

Please do not use bad mouth on Sidharta Gautama Buddha - he may be one of the prophets send by Allah - Allah give his guidence to all races of all generation - some of the prophet's name are mentioned in the sacred scriptures but some are not - it is wiser to say "The Creator knows everything - His knowledge is UNLIMITED while my knowledge is LIMITED - even the number of hairs on my body at certain time are not exactly known to me - I submit my self to Him".



[This message has been edited by mohd (edited 06 September 1999).]
 
Bill,

Thanks, I still don't have a khukuri yet, so I don't usually post here and just kinda lurk. Nonetheless I have always enjoyed your forum and its wealth of discussions. I'm thinking about getting one in the near future though.

Hansen,

The thing that differentiates true Christianity from Zen Buddhism and all religions, and indeed makes Christianity NOT a religion, is the fact that religions are mans attempt to reach God, or attain some sort of supposed perfection.
Click to expand...

A Moslem or a Jew would say likewise while referring to something different, so what's your point? We all know that they also share common sacred scriptures to some certain degree.

Man could NEVER through supposed good works or meditation, or whatever, even come close to be able to be in the presence of the true and living God, or become enlightened.
Click to expand...

What's enlightenment? I don't know about you, but enlightenment for me is to know and be aware that I'm one with God. There's an old yoga (which is not a religion or a belief, BTW) saying, translated: You could never separate yourself from God, as everything is God, and you're part of God. What's part of God that is not God? You're telling me I could never come close to God without Him reaching out for me?

God tells us in the Holy Bible to meditate, but he doesn't mean to empty our minds and open ourselves up to spiritual attack.
Click to expand...

Now now..., nobody says that to meditate is to empty one's mind. Nobody can empty his/her mind, intentionally or unintentionally. You're physically or psychically dead if you're able to do that. To meditate is to focus, and that's it, the only objective is to get rid of unimportant thoughts by not concentrating on them. The power of one's mind is such that everything in his psychic plane will manifest in his physical plane. Focus on the Word of God, and He will manifest.

However there was one thing I couldn't ignore: All the religions created by man have sacred scriptures, don't they? Why do you think there are no prophecies that came out true in all the writings on Buddhism, or any of the other false religions?
Click to expand...

Religions or beliefs (including Christianity)are not based on prophecies. A religion or a belief doesn't have to rely on prophecies to be valid. Even though the validity of one religion or belief is subjective, a religion that relies heavily on prophecies is not a religion at all.

I am sorry if I've offended you, but as they say, the truth hurts.
Click to expand...

I, for one, am not offended, and I doubt if others are. But no, the Truth never hurts. I'm not arguing about your belief, as like I said elsewhere I'm a Christian. But I don't see you have valid points to defend your arguments. Not everyone's a Christian, and admittedly, not all Christians share the same thoughts. We just have to accept that IMHO.




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Reynaert
 
Mohd,

I didn't know you're from Negeri Jiran! Nice to see you here. I'm Indonesian, but I'm studying here in the US. So, apa khabar (that's 'what's up' guys)? I agree wholeheartedly with your last post.



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Reynaert
 
mhod, your point is well taken. The slightest deviation from a path leads exponentialy to a large one. Trust your gut.

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Hansen: handle the Sword of the Spirit carefully and with reverence lest your own cherished flaws and shortcomings be deeply and truly excised by it.

Come to think of it, prudence really does dictate you have the paramedics on hand BEFORE you remove it from it's scabbard.

And my brother from another mother, Mohd, is right. Let's move this discussion on to the Zen II thread.

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 06 September 1999).]
 
What has all this to do with khukuris?
Click to expand...

Pakcik Bill - spirit of steel vs spirit of man!

When I see rust on my Khukuris - I am not happy - I try my best to get rid of the rust - polish them and make them shining again!

When is the last time I check my "self"? - is it full of "rust"? Am I going to take the best of my efforts to get rid of all that "rust"? what steps have I taken to polish my "self" and to make my "self" shining?

Once my peer told me that my "self" is the mirror for others! If my "self" is dirty then others won't clearly see their "self" image! When everybody's "self" are dirty then everybody are blurr! insight DARKNESS!

Allah give strength to steel that make Khukuris BUT Allah give the ultimate strength to the "self" of man - the strength of steel can never defeat the strength of the true "self" of man!

Pakcik Bill - please correct me if I'm wrong!

So, apa khabar (that's 'what's up' guys)?
Click to expand...

Reynaert - Alhamdu-li-(A)llaah! baik-baik saja, terima kasih! (ie. everything fine, thank you!) - don't hasitate! ask Pakcik Bill to send you a Khukuri - maybe 15" BAS (British Army Service) - it is a great knife!

BTW - ghost already posted a new thread with topic Zen II - why not we continue in there?
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum26/HTML/000500.html
 
Uncle Bill --- I appreciate your post on happiness and inner peace because I can very well relate to this. I will be 47 soon and have 20yrs working for the Dept. of Transportation. Been divorced twice, traveled around the USA with my son competeing on the National Karate circuit and was on a very famous national team. My son has grown up on me and I am beginning my search. I have been to Africa and Central America and will continue my journey. Hope to retire soon, then I will be on my way.

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The questions I ask: Would the words from anyone but an enlightened one be cause for changing ones direction in life? Does the definition of enlightened come from the enlightened one or is it something you already know and will recognize when you are near it? If you already know what enlightened is then you must be enlightened. It is written that there are myriad ways to true understanding. It is also written that at the time of realization, the entire path traveled to get there will be made perfect. It is taught to practice mindful living, and to try and avoid being subject to the desires and the ensuing actions that satisfy them (temporarily). I was also admonished to study cause and effect and to remember when kharma had bitten me, upon reflection it happened quite a bit and I earned it.
 
Hi you all. Glad you enjoyed my post. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with me.
Every human being has a void in their life, whether they admit it or not. We all try to fill that void with different things. Some of us follow pleasures, some of us Zen, some of us material things, etc. The fact is that there is only One that can fill that void. Only One piece will fit that puzzle - and He is Jesus the Christ. Everything else in comparison is meaningless, and will leave you never satisfied. Happy Trails.
 
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