Zero Tolerance might be the best thing to ever happen to knives.

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Random Dan said:
Why did we start bickering about who is the most innovative? Not once in the OP was the word innovation, or any of its derivatives used.
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The OP stated, I am paraphrasing, that ZT might be the best thing to ever happen to knives. I am sorry, but this statement implies superior innovation in design, form, function, components, manufacturing, quality control, customer service, warranty, steel etc. I admit that ZT does a lot of these things well, but my posts, and others, were pointing out where we perceived as ZT falling short of the OPs initial statement. I, for one, think that the 0777 is a beautifully executed design that I considered revolutionary when I first saw it. My guess is that MT thought the same thing. The 0777 was the reason that I bought a 0561 in the first place. I could not get the 0777 yet, and I wanted a good ZT knife until I could get a 0777. I drank the kool-aide, in other words. As I am underwhelmed by the 0561, I still do not own a 0777. I may never own a 0777, as beautiful as I think that knife is, because I am not convinced that I will be satisfied with the initial quality of the knife, nor am I convinced that I will be satisfied with the value of the knife given the price paid. For the prices that ZT charges for these offerings, I expect that the knife should be executed perfectly when I open the box. I do not have the confidence that it will be based on my experience. That is why I do not own a 0777, and I may not own any of their new offerings either.
 
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McVeyMac said:
The OP stated, I am paraphrasing, that ZT might be the best thing to ever happen to knives. I am sorry, but this statement implies superior innovation in design, form, function, components, manufacturing, quality control, customer service, warranty, steel etc. I admit that ZT does a lot of these things well, but my posts, and others, were pointing out where we perceived as ZT falling short of the OPs initial statement. I, for one, think that the 0777 is a beautifully executed design that I considered revolutionary when I first saw it. My guess is that MT thought the same thing. The 0777 was the reason that I bought a 0561 in the first place. I could not get the 0777 yet, and I wanted a good ZT knife until I could get a 0777. I drank the kool-aide, in other words. As I am uberwhelmed by the 0561, I still do not own a 0777. I may never own a 0777, as beautiful as I think that knife is, because I am not convinced that I will be satisfied with the initial quality of the knife, nor am I convinced that I will be satisfied with the value of the knife given the price paid. For the prices that ZT charges for these offerings, I expect that the knife should be executed perfectly when I open the box. I do not have the confidence that it will be based on my experience. That is why I do not own a 0777, and I may not own any of their new offerings either.
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A few things:
- I never stated or implied innovation. My main point was that they are making unprecedentedly high-quality knives available at (comparatively) extremely good prices, thus raising the bar for custom makers and other companies.
- Your singular experience with an 0561 is certainly not enough to draw conclusions about the company as a whole.
- The 0777M390, I can say from personal experience, lives up to the hype. I ended up selling mine without using it for a couple reasons, though - I didn't trust the inherent handle strength of the CF (it's a weight thing. I know it seems silly, but it just didn't feel substantial enough), and I also couldn't bring myself to carry something so valuable. They're amazing knives, especially if you get one for a non-ridiculous price (paid 380 for mine). I'll stick to my cheaper folders, though. I don't ever want to hesitate to use a tool, and I'm certainly no collector.
 
Comeuppance said:
A few things:
- I never stated or implied innovation.
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The phrase, "They are always coming out with new, extremely different models," could certainly be taken as an implication of innovation. It's also one of the statements that I feel is most exaggerated. ZT does a great job of what they do, but they have a very limited catalog of models and they all pretty much fall into the same niche.
 
Comeuppance said:
A few things:
- I never stated or implied innovation. My main point was that they are making unprecedentedly high-quality knives available at (comparatively) extremely good prices, thus raising the bar for custom makers and other companies.
- Your singular experience with an 0561 is certainly not enough to draw conclusions about the company as a whole.
- The 0777M390, I can say from personal experience, lives up to the hype. I ended up selling mine without using it for a couple reasons, though - I didn't trust the inherent handle strength of the CF (it's a weight thing. I know it seems silly, but it just didn't feel substantial enough), and I also couldn't bring myself to carry something so valuable. They're amazing knives, especially if you get one for a non-ridiculous price (paid 380 for mine). I'll stick to my cheaper folders, though. I don't ever want to hesitate to use a tool, and I'm certainly no collector.
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Unprecedented quality? This implies that no other maker has ever achieved this level of quality at any price point. This I will argue with vehemently. I concur that I have limited ZT experience, not singular though, I own a ZT fixed blade, but I do only own 1 ZT folder. Frankly, I am underwhelmed with both examples. To be fair, I bought the 0121 on clearance after it was discontinued thinking it would fill a niche in my collection. ZT should be commended for discontinuing it. But I must say that the 0121 was exactly as expected with good fit and finish. It only lacks in the form and function department as executed from the factory.

I digress though. My limited experience with the 0561, along with my reading many threads here on BF reading about many people expressing similar problems along with many more that I don't have, is the basis for my opinions. As I said before, at these price points, I expect better. My Sebenza 25 was executed perfectly out of the box, and still performs perfectly each day I carry and use it. It did not cost that much more than the high end ZT offerings. If we are to use the word unprecedented when describing quality, my experience in person and in reading would have to go to CRK. ZT is good, I carry my 0561 a lot. It can do things my Sabenza cannot simply due to the size, but I beg to differ that ZT is the best thing that ever happened to knives. Good, yes. Best, please. But they are a player, and this I cannot argue. But for my money (and this is what we are talking about), I will likely look elsewhere for my next folder purchase.
 
Comeuppance said:
- The 0777M390, I can say from personal experience, lives up to the hype. I ended up selling mine without using it for a couple reasons, though - I didn't trust the inherent handle strength of the CF (it's a weight thing. I know it seems silly, but it just didn't feel substantial enough), and I also couldn't bring myself to carry something so valuable. They're amazing knives, especially if you get one for a non-ridiculous price (paid 380 for mine).
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To play devil's advocate you're singular experience is not enough to say the 0777M390 lives up to the hype either, the sample I had was less than impressive for even the pre-order price, as a collection piece it's great, as a user, not so much, it didn't even come close to approaching my CRK knives for smoothness and solid feel. Others that have handled multiple 0777M390 samples have reported variations as well from spectacular to unimpressive. On the other hand my sample of the 0560CBCF is spectacular. So while it's certainly not limited to ZT we see complaints about variations from sample to sample in all the big knife companies, it is a concern for those that are picky, especially at that price range. More and more I think being able to handle some of these knives before purchase is getting to be a larger priority for me even at a higher cost, and if that option is not available just not purchasing it. It's worth it to get a good sample instead of being disappointed in the quality.

FWIW this is not limited to knives, before digital SLR's had focus offsets you could set for each lens camera enthusiasts would purchase 2-3 lenses of even the most expensive Canon/Nikon lenses available and test them to pick out the best copy because there were variations from sample to sample and people felt at that price point they wanted the best representative sample. That or they would buy the lens and instantly send the lens into the factory with their body and have the lens calibrated for their specific camera, Canon used to even offer it as a service to their professional customers annually.
 
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I don't see KAI as much different than Gerber in its heyday, which isn't a bad thing but contradicts the original claim. Gerber was good quality, had a lot of good designs, was good quality, and brought new materials and techniques to the market (such as frn handles, which was a game-changer). Maybe that shouldn't be surprising, considering Peter Kershaw, before founding his own company, worked for Gerber.

As for originality, I think perhaps they haven't changed the industry in huge ways like other companies have. They've certainly added new things, but nothing has been a hugely influential to the whole industry and consumers' tastes; for instance, brazed dual-steel blades are not at the level of frn (Gerber) or the pocket clip (Spyderco). They certainly have refined a lot of things and make good knives in quality and design.
 
I have to concur with ToddM, if I can't handle the knife, I will likely pass on the next ZT.
 
To those who say ZT is not innovative....

ZT's ability to take things that were previously only offered in the custom market (ex: 3d milled titanium framelocks. titanium sub framelocks, 3d milled carbon fiber, innovative new pocket clip designs, composite steels) and put them into high production while maintaining excellend quality control is no easy feat. Where's the innovation you say?? How about developing new techniques and processes to allow their machines to replicate what only hands could do previously? How about building a brand from scratch and developing several of the most innovative designs of the past few years in house (0777, 0888) and being recognized for it time and time again by leaders in the industry? How about offering products that are affordable to masses because of all this innovation?

Im sorry, but if you dont like ZT thats fine, but to say they are not innovative and pushing the envelope of production and challenging their peers to produce better quality offerings you are just being ignorant.

For those that complain of the occasional QC issue, and drone on and on, instead spend your time talking to KAI customer service. They have one of the best reputations in the industry, 90% of the BS on this forum can be resolved by FIRST trying to resolve the issues properly instead of just bitching like children. And to the hardcore collectors that expect their $250 0560 to have the same quality execution of their CRK (at twice the price) thats like asking why your Cadillac isnt up to the same standard as your Rolls Royce....its just a unrealistic expectation.
 
Rival1314 said:
To those who say ZT is not innovative....

ZT's ability to take things that were previously only offered in the custom market (ex: 3d milled titanium framelocks. titanium sub framelocks, 3d milled carbon fiber, innovative new pocket clip designs, composite steels) and put them into high production while maintaining excellend quality control is no easy feat. Where's the innovation you say?? How about developing new techniques and processes to allow their machines to replicate what only hands could do previously? How about building a brand from scratch and developing several of the most innovative designs of the past few years in house (0777, 0888) and being recognized for it time and time again by leaders in the industry? How about offering products that are affordable to masses because of all this innovation?

Im sorry, but if you dont like ZT thats fine, but to say they are not innovative and pushing the envelope of production and challenging their peers to produce better quality offerings you are just being ignorant.

For those that complain of the occasional QC issue, and drone on and on, instead spend your time talking to KAI customer service. They have one of the best reputations in the industry, 90% of the BS on this forum can be resolved by FIRST trying to resolve the issues properly instead of just bitching like children. And to the hardcore collectors that expect their $250 0560 to have the same quality execution of their CRK (at twice the price) thats like asking why your Cadillac isnt up to the same standard as your Rolls Royce....its just a unrealistic expectation.
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Which brand is best is subjective. I happen to like BM, ZT, Spyderco, and manny other brands. I own a couple of each and enjoy them all. No one has to be totally right or absolutely wrong here, try to reach an understanding and come away knowing more. :)

Wolverine666 said:
Does anyone know if any of the ZT's coming out for 2014 are non-flippers ?
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The new Emerson collaborations are wave/thumb disk only. Model 0620 and 0620CF I think.
 
Sorry,but now I disagree! Brother in law just bought a stonewashed model and it had a crack about 3/16 long.easily seen! He called ZT and they said that it did.nt hurt performance and would not do anything for him,except change the blade for a fee! He said that he was not satisfied with that response and they said it did not matter to them! IS ZT getting too big now? Are tey going to sacrifice CR now because they are too big for it to matter anymore?!?
Sorry but no more ZT for me!
 
marksky said:
Sorry,but now I disagree! Brother in law just bought a stonewashed model and it had a crack about 3/16 long.easily seen! He called ZT and they said that it did.nt hurt performance and would not do anything for him,except change the blade for a fee! He said that he was not satisfied with that response and they said it did not matter to them! IS ZT getting too big now? Are tey going to sacrifice CR now because they are too big for it to matter anymore?!?
Sorry but no more ZT for me!
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No offense, but I want to see a screens shot of the email. I've talked to people at ZT and Kershaw too many times to believe that.
 
I call B.S. on that as well and would have to see the email to believe it!!!!! Kai has some of the best customer service anywhere and u can ask anyone who has delt with them
 
Rival1314 said:
And to the hardcore collectors that expect their $250 0560 to have the same quality execution of their CRK (at twice the price) thats like asking why your Cadillac isnt up to the same standard as your Rolls Royce....its just a unrealistic expectation.
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At $350 for a 0777, this is getting pretty close to the cost of a CRK the way that I look at the world. I concur 100% with what you say about ZTs contribution to the industry. I do expect significantly greater quality with ZT compared to Kershaw though. That is because I am spending significantly more money on it. If I want to take my chances on getting a good one, I will just buy a Kershaw. If it has a problem, I still have the same excellent customer service to make it right. And I will pay a fraction of the price. Now I need to qualify this with as long as it is a US made Kershaw. I suspect that soon all Kershaw production will be overseas, and ZT will be the KAI US made offerings. For the fifth or sixth time, at these price points, I expect better, especially compared to Kershaw, quality. This is my opinion, and you are not going to change it. But I feel that we need to be open and honest in these public forums for those new knife fans who might have to save two years to come up with enough disposable income to buy a $250 knife. The title of this thread might entice them to go a particular way. I wanted to point out that it might be worth buying something cheaper from Kershaw, and saving for four years to buy a CRK or some other truly high end knife. This middle ground that ZT has carved out, I am just not comfortable with. You might call this bitching, I tried to make a sound and substantiated argument. If I came off bitchy, then please forgive me.
 
Rival, you prove my point and that of several others. They are breaking new ground in what production knives can be in terms of build quality, machining, collaborations, and last but not least, the willingness to throw as many embellishments in a knife as possible down to the pocket clips. Those are tremendous accomplishments and if you read the more "critical" (subjective minds who question the topic of the thread) responses, they are also complimenting ZT on those and more. Innovation was simply raised as a topic of contention is all. They do have limitations.... The brand and it's Ti framelock/flipper's knives it offers all fall in the same niche... Well two sub niches, one as collectible, and one as a heavy duty user(both are capable of use). While they aren't as proficient as ZT yet, other brands are making advancements in their production as well and do sometimes show off. BM has some ree-donkulous limiteds for 2014, even though arent new designs they are doing it. Spyderco just made Chaparral in stepped titanium, fluted ti and CF are on their way also. But anyway, I'm just participating to share my viewpoints on the opinions from topics that has been raised here.

As far as QC, I've had a dozen or so ZT's in my collection and I must say, I'm very impressed. Not even one knife had a real problem. They are built well.:thumbup:
 
marksky said:
Sorry,but now I disagree! Brother in law just bought a stonewashed model and it had a crack about 3/16 long.easily seen! He called ZT and they said that it did.nt hurt performance and would not do anything for him,except change the blade for a fee! He said that he was not satisfied with that response and they said it did not matter to them! IS ZT getting too big now? Are tey going to sacrifice CR now because they are too big for it to matter anymore?!?
Sorry but no more ZT for me!
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I am whole heartedly calling major BS on this. No offense intended, but your post read like a pure lie, and I really do not think you actually know what you are writing. Maybe you just felt compelled to jump in and throw your 2 cents in like everyone else. But I do believe you are embellishing way too much.
 
Rival1314 said:
To those who say ZT is not innovative....

ZT's ability to take things that were previously only offered in the custom market (ex: 3d milled titanium framelocks. titanium sub framelocks, 3d milled carbon fiber, innovative new pocket clip designs, composite steels) and put them into high production while maintaining excellend quality control is no easy feat. Where's the innovation you say?? How about developing new techniques and processes to allow their machines to replicate what only hands could do previously? How about building a brand from scratch and developing several of the most innovative designs of the past few years in house (0777, 0888) and being recognized for it time and time again by leaders in the industry? How about offering products that are affordable to masses because of all this innovation?

Im sorry, but if you dont like ZT thats fine, but to say they are not innovative and pushing the envelope of production and challenging their peers to produce better quality offerings you are just being ignorant.

For those that complain of the occasional QC issue, and drone on and on, instead spend your time talking to KAI customer service. They have one of the best reputations in the industry, 90% of the BS on this forum can be resolved by FIRST trying to resolve the issues properly instead of just bitching like children. And to the hardcore collectors that expect their $250 0560 to have the same quality execution of their CRK (at twice the price) thats like asking why your Cadillac isnt up to the same standard as your Rolls Royce....its just a unrealistic expectation.
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Quality? Yes. Innovation? A little, much less than other competitive brands. Almost everything you point out has been done before, maybe not as well lr on the same scale, but that's perfecting a process, not innovating. ZT makes great products, but say we take away everything ZT has given to the knife industry and what are we left with? An industry that looks, for the most part, the same. Maybe a bit less bling on tactical knives, maybe a few less framelock flippers. I think I can honestly say that the most innovative thing ZT has done is recognize that there was a largely unfilled niche for $180-$300 production knives and move to fill that gap.

If you love ZT so much you post these rants, that's fine, but to claim them as some hugely innovative industry force seems overblown.
 
RevDevil said:
I am whole heartedly calling major BS on this. No offense intended, but your post read like a pure lie, and I really do not think you actually know what you are writing. Maybe you just felt compelled to jump in and throw your 2 cents in like everyone else. But I do believe you are embellishing way too much.
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Embellishing on 2nd hand info? Nooooooo...that never happens. :p

ZT CS replacing the blade wasn't good enough? Geez....
 
This thread has fallen to the fate of most long threads - endless pointless bickering. Closing it.
 
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