Zoeller Burner Huffing

C

cjweaver13

Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
43
Hopefully last question for awhile, at least for setup. I am using a Zoeller burner setup, and followed direction with exception of having to use 1-1/4 tee all around with reducer. I can order the Ward if you think this is the some issue. I ordered what is supposed to be a 0-20psi regulator, but have my suspicions this is the problem. Burner starts off perfect, then after 5 minutes starts huffing bad with a yellow flame. Propane tanks is also full (made that mistake once already left. Im including a picture so you can see the setup. Everything except tee is to spec with Zoeller diagram. Thanks for the help as always! I forgot to take pictures of flame because I took apart and put on new gas Teflon tape to double check leaks and forgot. If you need some let me know and I can post tomorrow

YT3Kazv.jpg
[/IMG]



a>
 
No pics...

Are you talking about the burner making a rhythmic whoomf, whoomf, whoomf sound?

Almost like it’s going out, then restarting, then going out, etc?
 
Is the flared stainless nozzle heating up? If it starts glowing red, it will affect the flow of gasses and mess with the flames.
 
A.McPherson said:
No pics...

Are you talking about the burner making a rhythmic whoomf, whoomf, whoomf sound?

Almost like it’s going out, then restarting, then going out, etc?
Click to expand...


Sorry, uploaded from phone and it didn't work apparently. What you said is exactly it. I have a stainless flare ordered, but so far have tried straight pipe, 1" expansion on end using bell reducer, and also flange floor plate on forge. All do the same thing. It starts out fine, and in about 5 minutes of burning it starts the pulsing regardless of what pressure I turn it up to which is theoretically 20psi on the regulator assuming it's working. At max pressure it's also not blowing out the flame like it has too much pressure. Here's a pic that should work.

 
Is the problem occurring with the burner in the forge, or are you trying to run it in open air?

How confident are you that the regulator is giving the pressure it should be?

What size gas jet are you using?

“Huffing” is not a precise technical term, which is why I am asking the questions.

In the burner tube, the mixture needs to be moving towards the nozzle faster than the flame-front moves through the mixture in the opposite direction. The flame speed is affected by the pressure, temperature and composition of the mixture. One possibility is that, as the temperature increases, the flame speed gets higher than the mixture speed, the flame runs back down the tube until there is no more mixture left to burn and goes out. The gas continues to be fed, drawing in air and mixing with it, until fresh mixture reaches the hot forge, ignites and the process repeats.

Once this starts, it tends to continue. Each time the flame runs down the tube, it heats the tube a little, increasing the tendency for it to happen. If you catch it quickly and turn up the gas pressure, increasing the mixture speed, you can sometimes stop it.

Does this sound like it might be what you are seeing?
 
Take a hair drier and blow it down the tube. If it stops, it means that you are not getting enough air.

That means you probably need a smaller jet to get more gas velocity, and thus more air pulled into the burner.

Anyway that’s my take on it.
Good luck!
 
Hook up a blower to your air aperature, problem will be solved.

Venturi burners are very finicky as you have to match gas aperature size to local atmospheric pressure (or actually density altitude) and they are prone to disruption from external air movement. Especially if you use a Tee for your venturi. With a setup like that, it is very easy to achieve competing venturi effects (if the wind flows in plane with the with the face of your aperature).

Where is your choke? how do you reduce airflow? Without the ability to change your mixture, you will always have problems.
 
joedhiggins said:
Hook up a blower to your air aperature, problem will be solved.

Venturi burners are very finicky as you have to match gas aperature size to local atmospheric pressure (or actually density altitude) and they are prone to disruption from external air movement. Especially if you use a Tee for your venturi. With a setup like that, it is very easy to achieve competing venturi effects (if the wind flows in plane with the with the face of your aperature).

Where is your choke? how do you reduce airflow? Without the ability to change your mixture, you will always have problems.
Click to expand...

I was doing a temporary choke with my round cutout. Tonight I will pin it in permanently. Noted thanks!
 
timgunn1962 said:
Is the problem occurring with the burner in the forge, or are you trying to run it in open air?

How confident are you that the regulator is giving the pressure it should be?

What size gas jet are you using?

“Huffing” is not a precise technical term, which is why I am asking the questions.

In the burner tube, the mixture needs to be moving towards the nozzle faster than the flame-front moves through the mixture in the opposite direction. The flame speed is affected by the pressure, temperature and composition of the mixture. One possibility is that, as the temperature increases, the flame speed gets higher than the mixture speed, the flame runs back down the tube until there is no more mixture left to burn and goes out. The gas continues to be fed, drawing in air and mixing with it, until fresh mixture reaches the hot forge, ignites and the process repeats.

Once this starts, it tends to continue. Each time the flame runs down the tube, it heats the tube a little, increasing the tendency for it to happen. If you catch it quickly and turn up the gas pressure, increasing the mixture speed, you can sometimes stop it.

Does this sound like it might be what you are seeing?
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I wasn't sure how to phrase it more technically. I am not certain the regulator is doing its job. Somebody smarter than me said to check that first, as now I'm using a 0-20psi amazon cheapo special. I ordered a Bayou 0-40 lefty thread to try. My nozzle size currently is .035 mig bit. Also, great explanation thanks
 
cjweaver13 said:
Fair enough, I wasn't sure how to phrase it more technically. I am not certain the regulator is doing its job. Somebody smarter than me said to check that first, as now I'm using a 0-20psi amazon cheapo special. I ordered a Bayou 0-40 lefty thread to try. My nozzle size currently is .035 mig bit. Also, great explanation thanks
Click to expand...
What altitude are you at? Try a .030 or .023 if above sea level. Give yourself an airflow choke.
 
Try dropping the mig tip a little further into the T. Mine is almost even with the bottom of the opening as you see it in your picture.
 
I would try as Rick Marchand suggests, and 'm not particularly fond of the Tee and reducer setup. It is sure to create some turbulence on the incoming air. A ward reducing Tee would be much better.
 
KnuckleDownKnives said:
I would try as Rick Marchand suggests, and 'm not particularly fond of the Tee and reducer setup. It is sure to create some turbulence on the incoming air. A ward reducing Tee would be much better.
Click to expand...

Yah, I was being impatient and wanted to get some fire going. Would have been better off doing a 1 or 2 brick forge and propane torch. In fact I still might while I get this beast going. I'll order a Ward one just to be safe since it burns better anyway by all indications.
 
You can just slap a welding ground magnet on to use for a choke. That's what I do.

There are a number of factors going on that could be at issue, but the fact that it takes a few minutes to start makes me think that it's heat affecting the flow. Adjusting the height of the MIG tip, adjusting a choke, and making sure the flare isn't over heating are all things I've had to do in my own Venturi forge. Those are what I would check first.
 
Storm Crow said:
You can just slap a welding ground magnet on to use for a choke. That's what I do.

There are a number of factors going on that could be at issue, but the fact that it takes a few minutes to start makes me think that it's heat affecting the flow. Adjusting the height of the MIG tip, adjusting a choke, and making sure the flare isn't over heating are all things I've had to do in my own Venturi forge. Those are what I would check first.
Click to expand...

Stupid question,but how do I control the heat on on contact for the flare?
 
Most of the time, the problem is a lack of fuel. An inadequate regulator or too small a orifice can prevent proper burning.

If your flare is getting too hot, it’s too far into the forge.

I recommend you buy an industrial regulator first. If it is still starved for fuel, increase the diameter of the orifice ~.005 at a time until it burns steady. (Using micro drill bits)

Hoss
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top