ZT 550 with Vanax 35 questions...

Thomas W said:
Out perform (edge retention) at "max" hardness... It should be mentioned that Phil likes to bring/test steel at Rc levels that push to the peak of each individual steels hardness.

I don't know any production company max hardening either steel, or any steel. Since the OP was specifically identifying steels in a production folder, you may have considered making a disclaimer in this thread vs. the results of your specific testing of the two steels (ELMAX - M390) within the link. Your statement above may be a tad broad here, and could lead one to think it is actual fact under every circumstance. Additionally, I didn't see the trade offs when max hardening mentioned which seems responsible considering the statement. .

If you have done testing on both steels at multiple Rc levels and edge geometries with the same 25% increased "performance", I'll go ahead and apologize in advance, although we all have opinions on not only the validity of specific tests, but how the results transfer vs real world applications. :) Perhaps that's for another thread though...no wait, sorry, I guess that's been"discussed" too many times as it is.
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I should have said at Max Hardness you are correct. :)

Lots of variables in production blades and sharpening, thickness, blade grinds etc.

There is a lot more to it than just that one thread.
 
Doc Pringles said:
The makeup of this steel throws me off.
Can someone explain the odd Vanax 35 Information & Composition

Vanax 35 Information & Composition
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Basically it's a steel that more or less substitutes carbon with nitrogen. Forms nitrides instead of carbides. It's been said that nitrogen is less prone to form nitrides meaning it can be used to increase hardness without increasing carbide size or volume. The final result would be a more corrosion resistant steel that might also take a very fine edge.

It's really hard to say what the steel will be like until someone actually uses it. As a steel junkie I for one am very curious about how it will work.

Vanax75 should prove to be a very nice wear resistant steel, but I think my wallet is still hurting too much to buy the ZT 0550. Though I guess I shouldn't worry since the 0550 should be a full production model:thumbup:.
 
Noctis3880 said:
It's really hard to say what the steel will be like until someone actually uses it. As a steel junkie I for one am very curious about how it will work.
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We've been testing Vanax 35 for several months. It is a very interesting steel. It is very easy to sharpen and holds an edge well.

I was told S30V out performed Vanax 35 in CATRA testing. However, in real world use I prefer Vanax. It has a different feel when cutting. The Uddeholm metallurgist told me nitrides are slippery. The slippery surface on the outside of the blade does not drag cut so cutting is easier. You can feel a difference when using the knife.

I'm looking forward to Uddeholm releasing Vanax 35 & Vanax 75.
 
jim has done some unpublished tests with elmax & m390 & 10v or 110v that i'm privy to & you can be assured that he knows what he is talking about. some of this was in concurrance with phil wilson & i've read the results. these people are my friends & i would'nt release the info since that would be an ultimate rudeness. jim & phil are really the only men privledged to broadcast these numbers & please accept the fact that the statistics they have conclusively back their statements.
dennis
 
Chuck Bybee said:
We've been testing Vanax 35 for several months. It is a very interesting steel. It is very easy to sharpen and holds an edge well.

I was told S30V out performed Vanax 35 in CATRA testing. However, in real world use I prefer Vanax. It has a different feel when cutting. The Uddeholm metallurgist told me nitrides are slippery. The slippery surface on the outside of the blade does not drag cut so cutting is easier. You can feel a difference when using the knife.

I'm looking forward to Uddeholm releasing Vanax 35 & Vanax 75.
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You just made a sale.
I've found that my stainless blades are stickier with more different materials (I was in boat construction for 12ish years) than my high carbon blades are.
S30V and M390 definitely required more acetone wipes (gotta have a clean blade to cut cleanly) than most of my steels.
High carbon steels have a solid lead on stainless steels in the world of people that I've known who cut wood for a living. Stainless basically isn't on the scene at all, at least for anything edged.
I gotta wonder if stainless will ever compete when it comes down to cutting stuff for profit.
You give me a workhorse of a slippery blade with an easily maintainable edge that could be dropped in the bay, found a month later and I'd still have a decent knife left, I'd be a happy man.
Besides... different steels are fun to play with.
 
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Chuck Bybee said:
We've been testing Vanax 35 for several months. It is a very interesting steel. It is very easy to sharpen and holds an edge well.

I was told S30V out performed Vanax 35 in CATRA testing. However, in real world use I prefer Vanax. It has a different feel when cutting. The Uddeholm metallurgist told me nitrides are slippery. The slippery surface on the outside of the blade does not drag cut so cutting is easier. You can feel a difference when using the knife.

I'm looking forward to Uddeholm releasing Vanax 35 & Vanax 75.
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Very interesting indeed. But I wonder how you would rate the corrosion resistance, and whether the method of edge degradation tends to be rolling or chipping.
 
Chuck Bybee said:
We've been testing Vanax 35 for several months. It is a very interesting steel. It is very easy to sharpen and holds an edge well.

I was told S30V out performed Vanax 35 in CATRA testing. However, in real world use I prefer Vanax. It has a different feel when cutting. The Uddeholm metallurgist told me nitrides are slippery. The slippery surface on the outside of the blade does not drag cut so cutting is easier. You can feel a difference when using the knife.

I'm looking forward to Uddeholm releasing Vanax 35 & Vanax 75.
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That sounds like an very interesting steel and it should be very stain resistant also from the sheet. :)
 
Chuck Bybee said:
We've been testing Vanax 35 for several months. It is a very interesting steel. It is very easy to sharpen and holds an edge well.

I was told S30V out performed Vanax 35 in CATRA testing. However, in real world use I prefer Vanax. It has a different feel when cutting. The Uddeholm metallurgist told me nitrides are slippery. The slippery surface on the outside of the blade does not drag cut so cutting is easier. You can feel a difference when using the knife.

I'm looking forward to Uddeholm releasing Vanax 35 & Vanax 75.
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Interesting. Steel that peforms like Talonite, which seems to just glide through things and to be pretty slick also.

STR
 
ankerson explained his tests on 5/8 ths sisal this is the basis of which he drew the conclusion of 25% better at edge holding. all bevels & sharpness levels =. when jim mentions 25% m390 over elmax he's referring to the testing he reported in his original thread. certainly it doe'st take a mental giant to perceive that if jim was cutting balsa wood the 25% advantage might not be valid. the figure was derived from the established procedures. of course on april fools day in the rain with a temperture of 110 degrees the advantage of 390 over elmax might have been 10% or 68%. get out to your garages , set up your tests , do your procedures & then please send us your own percentages.dennis strickland.
 
termiteslayer said:
You give me a workhorse of a slippery blade with an easily maintainable edge that could be dropped in the bay, found a month later and I'd still have a decent knife left, I'd be a happy man.
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We used the Vanax knife in the kitchen for a few days, (my wife knife-knapped it). She cut meats and acidic vegetables and the blade did not begin to stain.

When cutting it does feel kind of like Talonite, but different. It is definitely harder than Talonite or Stellite 6K. It tested at HRC 59.

Kudos to Thomas and Kershaw for having the cojones to use the Vanax steels. :thumbup:
 
DennisStrickland said:
ankerson explained his tests on 5/8 ths sisal this is the basis of which he drew the conclusion of 25% better at edge holding. all bevels & sharpness levels =. when jim mentions 25% m390 over elmax he's referring to the testing he reported in his original thread. certainly it doe'st take a mental giant to perceive that if jim was cutting balsa wood the 25% advantage might not be valid. the figure was derived from the established procedures. of course on april fools day in the rain with a temperture of 110 degrees the advantage of 390 over elmax might have been 10% or 68%. get out to your garages , set up your tests , do your procedures & then please send us your own percentages.dennis strickland.
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Got it :thumbup:...I think :confused:
 
bchan77 said:
How would Vanax compare against Elmax? Does anybody have any idea?
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No one will know the answer to this question until Uddeholm releases Vanax 35.

The billets I had were from a prototype run using first generation particle metallurgy process. The production steel will use the third generation process which produces a very fine powder. In other words the steel granule size will go from granulated sugar to flour. The finer granules result in a tougher steel. The tiny granule size is one of the reasons Elmax is so tough.

I've been told of two Elmax experiences by knifemakers that demonstrate its toughness.

1) Elmax was heat treated to a finished HRC of 61. When used for chopping the steel would not chip. There was some plastic deformation but no chipping.

2) A knifemaker noticed his blade was bent after heat treating was complete and the blade was cool. He put the blade in straightening dies and bent the blade to almost 90° and the blade did not break.

In my opinion, Elmax is the toughest stainless blade steel available. It may become the CPM 3V of stainless steels.
 
bchan77 said:
How would Vanax compare against Elmax? Does anybody have any idea?
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I can only make assumptions looking at the steel composition(assuming it is accurate), and also assuming that it is true that nitrides are less prone to form than carbides.

Given that Vanax35 has 20% Chromium versus the 18% in Elmax, I would think these two points would mean extremely remarkable corrosion resistance. I don't think corrosion resistance would even touch H1 given that it has 14-16% Chromium, with most or all of it being free. Still, it should be better than most other steels used in production knives.

But given that the nitride volume will be lower(as well as less vanadium), wear resistance would be expected to be less than S30V or Elmax.

Oh, and just found this little bit from Thomas W a while back:
As to the Vanax 35 steel, we are currently testing it. It looks as though it will come in at 60-61 Rc.

As to the "hype" with it, this is a tad from Uddeholm:

A corrosion resistance as good as austenitic stainless steel, a hardness of
60+ Rockwell and a wear resistance and edge retention of a vanadium alloyed
PM steel? Sounds like a dream come true for any real knife enthusiast.
In Uddeholm Vanax 35 we have made this happen by a revolutionary method
of replacing most of the carbon with nitrogen to optimize the amount of chromium
in solid solution. The nitrogen forms extremely small (<1 &#956;m) and hard
vanadium/chromium nitrides, enabling a great combination of wear resistance,
edge retention, grindability and toughness.

Uddeholm Vanax 35 is truly the most innovative powder metallurgical knife
steel on the market today. This product is currently under development and
being tested by a selected number of key knife makers in the USA.
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Sounds very nice indeed, though I believe the main selling point will be the corrosion resistance. I've heard it mentioned that the nitrides are smaller than carbides, but I'm not sure if there's truth in that.

I'm not sure if anybody needs that much corrosion resistance unless they're on a fishing boat, but I for one am always happy to have a new exotic steel to play with.

Having bought a ZT 0551, which then led me to buy an XM-18, and now having pre-ordered a ZT 0550, I sincerely hope both Rick and Thomas are thoroughly pleased with themselves for having pried every dollar from my wallet:thumbup:.
 
DennisStrickland said:
get out to your garages , set up your tests , do your procedures & then please send us your own percentages.
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I don't think a manager at Kershaw needs to test out of his garage, maybe just ask some of the engineers on staff or contact the foundry metallurgists, lol.:D
 
Given the apparent corrosion resistant properties of the Vanax 35 composition, I question even more whay ZT would want to coat the blade of the 0550.

I don'y like coatings but the 0550 is so compelling I have to own it anyway but the 0550 would be a 10 versus 9.5 on the desirable scale for me if they just stonewashed that blade. I wonder if Vanax 35 just doesn't respond well to a satin or stonewashed finish?
 
Chuck Bybee said:
No one will know the answer to this question until Uddeholm releases Vanax 35.

The billets I had were from a prototype run using first generation particle metallurgy process. The production steel will use the third generation process which produces a very fine powder. In other words the steel granule size will go from granulated sugar to flour. The finer granules result in a tougher steel. The tiny granule size is one of the reasons Elmax is so tough.

I've been told of two Elmax experiences by knifemakers that demonstrate its toughness.

1) Elmax was heat treated to a finished HRC of 61. When used for chopping the steel would not chip. There was some plastic deformation but no chipping.

2) A knifemaker noticed his blade was bent after heat treating was complete and the blade was cool. He put the blade in straightening dies and bent the blade to almost 90° and the blade did not break.

In my opinion, Elmax is the toughest stainless blade steel available. It may become the CPM 3V of stainless steels.
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With that kind of versatility and performance I see it as a good choice for anything from small and large folders, sheath knives both smaller and larger and maybe even machetes or other survival and outdoors types of blades. Seems a good choice for salt water environs like the marsh lands for both hunters and fisherman and also equally as good a choice for tropical rain forest knives also.

STR
 
Reeek said:
Given the apparent corrosion resistant properties of the Vanax 35 composition, I question even more whay ZT would want to coat the blade of the 0550.

I don'y like coatings but the 0550 is so compelling I have to own it anyway but the 0550 would be a 10 versus 9.5 on the desirable scale for me if they just stonewashed that blade. I wonder if Vanax 35 just doesn't respond well to a satin or stonewashed finish?
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I have no complaints about the coating. I find that DLC helps a great deal in reducing drag when cutting. Besides, it's DLC as opposed to the crap on Emerson knives that easily gets rubbed off on my pants. As far as coatings go, this would seem to be the very best.
 
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