Paypal, the forums, ethics, and you.

elkins45 said:
The good news is that you aren't selling physical merchandise like an eBay seller would be, so you can't get screwed by the "Significantly Not As Described" scam. It's the reason I'm unwilling to sell on eBay since they won't let you accept money orders anymore. If someone tries to screw you all you have to do is flip the switch and their membership is revoked. You didn't actually mail them anything you can't get back.

That said, I hate PayPal even though I use them all the time when I buy stuff on eBay. PP is fine for buyers, it's sellers that absorb so much of the risk.

You might consider it for overseas purchasers who don't have other options, but if I were you I wouldn't take it for US addresses. Just my opinion.
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Sure you could. "I bought a membership and I'm unhappy." "I felt like I would be treated differently and I wasn't." "The membership turned out to not be needed."

Buyers remorse. All it takes is one person to file a claim or make a complaint and you're under the microscope.
 
PayPal accounts for nearly half of our on-line payments. I have never been burned by them and their rates are reasonable. The convenience and security they offer my customers are outstanding. If anything questionable happens on my account, such as unusual spending activity, I get a personal phone call within hours to verify.

I wasn't aware of an anti-gun / anti-knife policy. I'm anti-a-few-other-things that people might not approve of. So long as I don't cram it down someone's throat, it doesn't seem to get in the way.

To answer the question directly, yes - I would like the option of paypal. If it is not available, I'll use less preferred options.

Rob!
 
Spark,

I don't have any really strong feelings on this issue (which I know doesn't really help you much :eek:), but I do appreciate you asking for input. It seems there are two distinct but interrelated issues here: business impacts, and ethical issues.

On the business side, is there any way you could "guesstimate" what the $ impact would be to you and the members here at BF? What are the quantifiable benefits? More international memberships? Higher rate of renewals? etc. Then balance this against the likely costs/disadvantages from a business side, such as loss of revenue if PP deems BF to be weapons oriented (I'm still unclear on this issue), fees you need to pay to PP, etc. Once the benefits and costs are quantified, then at least on the business side you know whether you even want to wander into these woods. Who knows, it may come out that the business benefits are really minimal and then the ethical issues become mute, since you don't want to do it anyway. I know that what I'm outlining here is not rocket science - you're a smart guy and know the basics of benefit-cost analysis.

On the ethics side, I can empathize with you. It would seem that you need to first clarify exactly what their stance is on being "anti-weapons." Some of the posts above discuss the issue a bit and raise interesting points, but I wonder if it wouldn't help to contact owners of similar forums (guns, swords, other knife forums, etc.) to get their take on the issue. Maybe even a forumite who is a lawyer and would be willing to help?? Once you have a handle on this, then it's up to you to determine whether their stand is something you can live with. It seems that by bringing it up in this thread, you already consider it something that you would be open to, assuming I'm interpreting this correctly.

Sorry I don't have any quick or easy answers. Remember, as Abraham Lincoln purportedly stated, "The true rule, in determining to embrace or reject any thing is not whether it have any evil in it; but whether it have more of evil, than of good." Good luck with this decision. For what it's worth, you have my support all the way, whatever you decide.

- Mark
 
How about a disclaimer.

Such as, "this forum accepts Paypal, however, the views and opinions expressed by Paypal and it's affiliates are not necessarily shared by....etc...."
"Use at your own discretion"

This shifts the decision to the subscriber. Paypal would be one of many options.
 
I just found this thread. PayPal should be accepted. It's easier for members, would bring in more money for site and if you really want to protect your rights to gun ownership then take all the money received via paypal and DO SOMETHING! Write letters, hire people to write letters, take out newspaper ads, print up and distribute flyers etc. These things work. Bladeforums boycott is ineffectual and isn't that the point? To actually stem the tide of anti-gun laws? Or just be perceived as noble or unwavering? Seems real "high-school" to me. No one of importance in these changing times cares nor will be affected by your "on principle" stand. Just pissing in the wind as they say. Pick your battles... Please don't get me wrong though...I love this site and think all involved deserve huge thanks for all their hard work and strong principles. -Dave
 
Dave Thinkstoomuch said:
I just found this thread. PayPal should be accepted. It's easier for members, would bring in more money for site and if you really want to protect your rights to gun ownership then take all the money received via paypal and DO SOMETHING! Write letters, hire people to write letters, take out newspaper ads, print up and distribute flyers etc. These things work. Bladeforums boycott is ineffectual and isn't that the point? To actually stem the tide of anti-gun laws? Or just be perceived as noble or unwavering? Seems real "high-school" to me. No one of importance in these changing times cares nor will be affected by your "on principle" stand. Just pissing in the wind as they say. Pick your battles...
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These things cost money. :eek:
 
Dave Thinkstoomuch said:
I just found this thread. PayPal should be accepted. It's easier for members, would bring in more money for site and if you really want to protect your rights to gun ownership then take all the money received via paypal and DO SOMETHING! Write letters, hire people to write letters, take out newspaper ads, print up and distribute flyers etc. These things work. Bladeforums boycott is ineffectual and isn't that the point? To actually stem the tide of anti-gun laws? Or just be perceived as noble or unwavering? Seems real "high-school" to me. No one of importance in these changing times cares nor will be affected by your "on principle" stand. Just pissing in the wind as they say. Pick your battles... Please don't get me wrong though...I love this site and think all involved deserve huge thanks for all their hard work and strong principles. -Dave
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I have changed my mind, I didn't care before but Now I agree with Ken- let the customer jump through Paypal's hoops if they want to use it. The above poster highlighted the fact that having principles means something, not just something you do for show. . . the exact opposite of his view.
 
I'm for standing by your initial decision not to accept PayPal as long as that remains a financially viable option.

I have noticed several threads by non-US residents asking about sending in payment for membership and would recommend cleaning up that process a bit.
 
Josh K said:
Sure you could. "I bought a membership and I'm unhappy." "I felt like I would be treated differently and I wasn't." "The membership turned out to not be needed."

Buyers remorse. All it takes is one person to file a claim or make a complaint and you're under the microscope.
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But nothing would actually be 'lost' other than Spark's time. If somebody bitches (or flames out and gets banned) within the PP dispute timeline then maybe Spark doesn't get their $25. Yes, he lost some time (maybe) dealing with their membership, but at least they don't have a knife he sent them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still no fan of PP, but the SNAD scam doesn't bite as hard when you're just selling electrons.
 
New guy here, I would be a little less new had Paypal been an option. While I too disagree with a lot of Paypal's philosophies, they have become a standard way for me to make payments over the internet. My bank doesn't automatically issue a debit card, only a card for use at ATMs so I had to wait for room to be available on my credit card to join. Allowing members and prospective new members the option of using Paypal would not only increase revenue, it's kinda a way to "stick it to Paypal", taking payments for something they don't necessarily approve of.
 
I have had a paypal account for years, and for years have had problems trying to upgrade my account. I am from Canada and your current system makes it very difficult for me to pay by credit card. If I can use Paypal I would have a full membership.
Steve
 
No Paypal. Why expose BFC (and 1sks, and yourself) to the risk? Paypal is known to screw customers over.

I'd sooner try to shave with a chainsaw.
 
I'm another one that agrees with Ken. Stand by your guns Spark.:thumbup:


.
 
elkins45 said:
But nothing would actually be 'lost' other than Spark's time. If somebody bitches (or flames out and gets banned) within the PP dispute timeline then maybe Spark doesn't get their $25. Yes, he lost some time (maybe) dealing with their membership, but at least they don't have a knife he sent them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still no fan of PP, but the SNAD scam doesn't bite as hard when you're just selling electrons.
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True it's just $25, but remember this is a knife site. Paypal decides to drop by and freeze the account while they "look into" the business. Suppose paypal is opened, and 10 people get Gold Memberships, another 3 get Knifemakers, and 5 get basic. That's $420 right there the could be permanently lost if Paypal decides to close the account. Best chance you have is getting it back in 180 days.
 
Paypal is not going to dispute a membership to an electronic knife site.

Nothing material is being exchanged. There is not a "dangerous weapon:rolleyes:" even involved.

Spark said:
Anyhow, by all means guys please let me know how you feel on this issue. It certainly will make it easier for the overseas guys to get memberships, but again, I don't want to lose a bunch of people either if they feel as I do (or stronger)
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So are any of you going to leave if BFC starts accepting Paypal? I doubt it. What it will do is generate more income for the site, which does benefit us all.

I spend way more money supporting the NRA, the gun community, and the knife community, than I ever will by transferring funds through Paypal.
 
5.56 said:
Paypal is not going to dispute a membership to an electronic knife site.

Nothing material is being exchanged. There is not a "dangerous weapon:rolleyes:" even involved.



So are any of you going to leave if BFC starts accepting Paypal? I doubt it. What it will do is generate more income for the site, which does benefit us all.

I spend way more money supporting the NRA, the gun community, and the knife community, than I ever will by transferring funds through Paypal.
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As an individual, no, but as a business? Average fees are about 3%, take 100 Gold Members and that's $75 that goes right to paypal.
 
Josh K said:
As an individual, no, but as a business? Average fees are about 3%, take 100 Gold Members and that's $75 that goes right to paypal.
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Sorry, don't mean to jump in, but the credit card fulfillment companies take their percentage too...it wouldn't be an extra expense to accept Paypal. It seems to me that if Spark decides he doesn't want to accept it, it will be a moral choice, not a financial one....
 
71rockstar said:
Sorry, don't mean to jump in, but the credit card fulfillment companies take their percentage too...it wouldn't be an extra expense to accept Paypal. It seems to me that if Spark decides he doesn't want to accept it, it will be a moral choice, not a financial one....
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Like I said previously, in supporting this site I would prefer to support it alone, without adding a tithe to a company who's politics I don't support.

Credit card companies, to the best of my knowledge, don't care if you purchase guns, knives, bombs, or lethal chemicals. They just want you to ring up debt so they can make money.
 
Josh K said:
Like I said previously, in supporting this site I would prefer to support it alone, without adding a tithe to a company who's politics I don't support.

Credit card companies, to the best of my knowledge, don't care if you purchase guns, knives, bombs, or lethal chemicals. They just want you to ring up debt so they can make money.
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Agreed, someone wicked is taking their cut either way ;) The question is where does it stop? Dalton knives can be had in the exchange. A huge amount of BF members (including myself) don't agree with Mr. Dalton's marketing and beliefs. Should Dalton knives be barred from sale here? I don't believe so, we can choose as individuals whether or not we care to support his products. And if Paypal makes it easier for someone to pay the dues to become a forum member, then it makes the forum stronger. You may choose to not "tithe" your money to Paypal, but one of our brothers may be OK with it...
 
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