Reverse Grip Fighting: Some things that bother me Mick

Crayola

Crayola

Joined
Sep 23, 1999
Messages
3,831
Hello!

This question/questions I have are related to the knife fighting thread, but I am posting them here. there are a couple of things that have really been on my mind, and I won't get "mat time" to check them out for a while, so I thought I'd ask.

First of all (and this is more of a "side" issue for me), in the handgunner magazine with the awesome Strider Knives article, there is a pic or 2 showing a guy using a knife in a "bad guy tried to grab your weapon" type scenarion. Why, though, are Striders carried on the right side for this, especially with the Safariland gun holster/sheath combo? I really know little about handguns (I live in Canada, what do you expect!) so I may just be asking you to dispell my ignorance here. But it just seems to me that it would make more sense to put your knife on your left side (for righties) for weapons retention stuff. Bad guy goes for your firearm (handgun in holster, carbine in right hand, whatever), so you hand on to your weapon with your right hand, draw the knife on your left hip with your left hand and stab away. I assume that there is a damned good reason or 3 for me having seen knives carried on the right side, so please help me out!

The real issue I want to talk about is reverse grip edge in, and reverse grip edge out, and carry methods. I know this has been brought up in the Strider forum before (by myself even), but I had never included talk about carry methods.

Sometimes I carry a 4" fixed blade (Allen Blade MEUK) in a kydex sheath on my right side, dege facing back (like most fixed blades ar carried.) Now, if the crap hit the fan and I needed to draw my knife in a reverse grip quickly, the fastest way I could do that would be to grab the handle of the knif with my knuckes forward, yang the kife out and start-a-stabbing. This, however would leave the edge back, facing my forearm instead of towards the bad guy. In a previosu thread Mick, you said the sharp parts should go towards the bad guy. But as far as I know, the fastest way to draw a knife carried this way would be to grab it the way I described, wich would leave the edge facign back. oen added benefit of this, I beleve, is that the edge is facing down so if you stab and continue the downrard/pulling toward yourself motion to withdraw your blade, you are cutting with the edge as you withdraw. If you stab with the edge facing the enemy, this natural downward/toward yourself pressure is put on the back of the knife, which obviously doesn't cut as well as the edge! There is really a lot that I am asking right now, but I'll try to reduce it to a simple question. Given the way I have described things, if a small fixed blade is carried with reverse gripstabbing in mind, shoudl we carry the knife with the edge facign toward the enemy so we can grab and stab (necessitating that we get different sheaths made for most knives), or is there merit to edge in reverse grip fighting as I described?

Thanks Mick, and to all who want to add here.
 
I am not left handed myself. I am not going to lift a folder from my left pocket, open it, then deploy. My AR folder is on my right side for utility.

I carry a smaller fixed blade TOPS knife in a belt kydex looking affair on my left, and it's handle is facing forward.

If I screw up and the BG has ahold of my gun as I do, I would use the fixed blade to cut across him neck, face, or hand to free my gun.

I assume that's what gun retention is about. keeping your handgun.
 
I am still waiting for the tiger striped paracord wrapped Tactical Frameing Hammer from that thread!

It may be funny, but people would probably buy it, and it would actually be a useful military tool.
 
The main factor that will influence where you carry a knife that is intended as a backup for handgun retention, is the locking mechanism of your *holster*.

I wear a Safariland 295, and it is far easier and more secure to keep the snap and locking mechanism engaged with pressure from the left hand across the body than it is with the right hand.

It's absolutely necessary to respond to a grab with *both hands*, but once the initial grab becomes "stabilized"...it is often easier to strike, peel, smash, or cut with the gun side hand while the opposite hand keeps pressure in the direction that keeps the gun locked in...in addition to being easier to reach the targets.

I personally carry 2 knives...one on the right side and one on the centerline of my body.
 
Ric..


AAAHHHHHH!!!! That is a sigh of relief I just breathed! 2 hands :) I always thought of the right hand holding nown on a handgun while the left hand did it's own thing. 2 hands makes sense :)
 
I can't speak for everybody because I know there are some environments (close quarters on board a ship for instance) where a pistol may be your primary weapon. However, I imagine the majority of us that carry a knife/gun/or both in a drop rig thigh holster do it with this in mind: Your primary weapon is going to be your long gun, in my case, a colt M-4. If you have to transition to your back up weapon, M-9 in my case...(i.e. weapon jams, out of ammo, etc.), the long gun ends up being slung from your right shoulder down across the left side of your body. This leaves the right side of your body free so you can grab your backup pistol or backup knife. The Strider holster/pistol combo is perfect for this because it allows you to drop your long gun across your body and access the knife on your thigh without getting tangled up on your vest, armor, etc. In the extreme "oh sh*t" scenario where you have transitioned from long gun, to pistol, and now from pistol to knife...that setup allows you to holster your pistol, rotate your hand forward and draw the knife in the reverse grip, blade out, without messing with straps or snaps.
My thinking on the gun grab is this: If someone tries to go for my holstered pistol/knife, they are welcome to try. Because I have an M-4 in my hand they will probably not get to it. If someone goes for the carbine, I am naturally going to turn my strong side (right side) away from them and hold the weapon with my left hand. This frees my right hand (strong hand) to grab either the gun or knife, or just to attack on its own.
This is only the tip of the iceberg. Law enforcement officers that carry exposed weapons in public face a far greater danger of a gun grab and may choose a different method of carry. As a soldier I try to keep my gear pretty simple. All my weapons are on my right side. All my ammo on the left, medical gear in my left thigh pouch. Like I said, my perspective is fairly limited and my operating environment is usually a little more cut and dried than that of a LEO.

Jason
 
I certainly am not an expert but in a gun retention scenario, both my arms/hands are occupied "locking" my firearm tightly into my holster/body as I move to gain leverage and hopefully control. If given the luxury of having a hand free to do whatever I like, I would be grabbing for my back-up gun!!!! Screw the knife.

But in my limited experience, both my arms have been real busy trying not to lose my gun and hurt the POS trying to get it REAL BAD and REAL FAST. Reaching for my "holstered" knife was not an option.
 
JB and wolfman, thanks for your input and for sharing your real world experiences. It sure has been a relief to get the weapon retention "problem" sorted through in my mind. Problems liek that stick in my head and I go nuts trying to figure them out. 6 years of studying philosophy at the university here has driven me crazy as much as it has enriched my life!

Mick: Take your time! But not too long, or I'll really go nuts!
 
Crayola,

I never did give an answer to your reverse grip fighting question though...One of the techniques that we learned in survival school was to hold the knife in reverse grip and attack with a push/pull motion. Usually these strikes were to the side of the neck, inner thigh, etc. There were a couple of reasons for this: 1. They use nothing but gross muscle movements-straight out, straight back, no feints, parrys, etc. 2. You can hold the knife edge out, or edge back and you will still get a cut. We were training with double-edged Applegate Fairburn trainers, so of course some of us in the class asked the question: "What if the knife is only a single edge?" The instructor told us that the push/pull techniques apply so much force to the edge of the blade that it doesn't really matter what side you attack with. They had actually tested it on cadavers with just a sharpened stick (this was survival school, after all) and the shearing force was so great that it would still rip the skin right off the neck. Stabs were done straight into the side of the neck or down through the subclavian artery toward the aortic arch. We learned that stabbing technique for the same reason, it could be done edge in, edge out, or just with a sharpened stick if necessary. My point is that whatever way you carry the knife, you can find a technique to make it work. The knife serves no purpose at all if you don't have it in your hand, so develop a way to carry it that you are comfortable with and that you will always do. Best of luck figuring it out. I've spent years experimenting with every knife I own to figure out what I'm comfortable with.

Jason

P.S. I'm envious, I'm currently studying Forensics at a University that does not offer a single Philosophy course. I miss it a lot
 
Okay…
Thanks for your patience.
Weird weekend.

We are currently working on some articles for publication, these topics are sure to be covered, so you have to read them there as well. Or your cheat’n.
_______________________

However the knife ends up in your hand will work great.

But…

The placement and use of a knife in a conflict environment is one of critical importance.
Placement of the knife is, at the best of times, difficult. You are already covered with every type of gear you can imagine. Your ability to reach certain parts of your body is restricted heavily.
As an example we will use a standardish loadout for Close Quarters Battle.

Primary weapon will be an M4. Which is generally carried on a tactical sling which allows a right handed combatant to, when transitioning, push the weapon back and down on the right side of the body. The reason we want the weapon pushed to the strong side is because of what?
That is where the secondary weapon, in this case a 1911, is kept in a drop holster of some type. I prefer the SAFARILAND 6004 because of its amazing ruggedness and reliability; there are however a ton of low ride rigs on the market. I like to adjust my drop holster to the height where, when standing without a vest or obstructions, my hand hangs naturally to the level of my pistol grip. This is where my hand best finds my weapon, even after my gear has been strapped on.
Okay then…
We practice and practice the transition from primary to secondary weapon.
This is because of our basic will to live. There WILL come a point where your weapon will become compromised. Again…There WILL come a time when your weapon will become compromised! So we practice and practice our transitions.
Now…we have been practicing the **** out of our transitions, and we want to add a third tier weapon, where should we put that sucker?
We are already used to reaching to our drop holster. We will more than likely, if actually dropping from two to three, and not going right from one to three, want to re-holster our sidearm. If it’s not possible, or time smart, of course we drop the thing. It better be on a lanyard anyway. IF you can holster the thing it is always good because it sucks to fight while dragging around an anchor. Your teammates become angry when you begin bashing their ankles to pieces.
So we want the third weapon system as close as we can get it to the second. Someone mentioned that they keep their weapons on one side and their ammo and gear on the other. This is correct, with the exceptions of a few strong side only items. We want the weapons in a ‘stack’. If you can’t get your knife on your holster, get it close. A lot of guys are now carrying their knife on the holster leg straps. Some like it in front, others in back. I like it on the front more than the back, I bend my legs a lot to keep my head on, and it makes the knife sit at a weird angle when I squat or kneel.
I don’t recommend cross draw in a battle situation. It works VERY well in civilian clothes. I love cross draw for EDC. It is very fast and brings the weapon out teeth first. In gear, with a long gun/carbine, it doesn’t work well. This isn’t my opinion, its fact.
The reasons, off the top of my head;
1 You can’t reach it with your primary weapon in hand.
When you are holding a slung weapon, you can reach your knife, for whatever reason, by letting go of the pistol grip and grabbing your knife. To reach across you would have to reach around or through your sling.
2 When you transition, you will push your weapon back strong side, then reach all the way over to your off side and grab for a knife. You will look like a washing machine.
If you have a standard sling and transition to your weak side, you will cover your knife with your weapon and sling.
3 When you turn to reach across your body to grab a knife, you compromise your body armor. Remember, front towards enemy. You don’t extra holes in your thoracic cavity.

That’s enough for now. If you want to carry a knife on the weak side, carry a small blade ‘cool guy style’ on your shoulder. I usually do. It is easy to access and works great for utility.

Let’s switch to the fight.

Edge out.
Edge in.
Reverse grip.
Standard grip.
Whatever…

I like to carry a knife made to fight (in gear) on my strong side with the blade forward. This is because when I transition to the knife, it is in my strongest grip, with the teeth at the badguy. As you draw the knife, you have no need to create a pocket, or set up in any way. The blade is able to cut from the sheath onward. By “make a pocket” I am referring to the need to make a usable space between you and the BG. If I have the knife in standard grip, I need to create an air gap between myself and my target, in order to use the knife efficiently. Its human body mechanics. Given my preference, I would like to fight with the knife in standard grip. This way you have a nice feeling of reach and protection. Rarely are you given your choice. So you have to use what works best. What works best is to stay close, and stab the BG to death as fast as you are able. Using the face and neck as targets.

I like to keep the edge away whenever possible. This is to protect myself and my teammates.
Edge out forces a larger wound channel through flesh.
Edge out forces a blade through armor more easily than edge in. Remember the ‘sticky tip’? Sticky Tip is what you see on a Tanto. There is no sharp false edge. A sticky tip works better on armor than a non sticky tip, due to that fact that a sharp false edge has the ability to ‘slip cut’. Which turns a stab into a cut. We don’t want that. That is the reason none of our EB knives have a false edge. They are made for CQB.

Edge in works fine. My main issue with it is more of safety than performance.
Usually, edge in comes into play by fast grabbing a knife that is carried in standard knife mode on the strong side hip. It is easily avoided by carrying the knife in a blade forward manner. True you will use the knife for utility WAY more than battle. But your not usually in life or death mode when using it for utility, and it can easily be turned after pulling it from the sheath.

On weapons retention:
NEVER fight the BG. (Sorry LEO’s. You’ll have to get what you can from this).
The BG is there to be killed. As are you. You decide the rest.
If the BG wants your primary, let them have it. While they are trying to take it, kill them with your secondary or third tier weapon. Its not that easy to turn a slung weapon on someone and use it.

Remember that at contact range, a knife is WAY more effective than a gun. You can grab a firearm and render it useless. It’s a LOT harder to grab a knife.

DO NOT FIGHT.

Its not your job. Fighting is for boxers and the WWF.
It is your job, in a life or death conflict, to neutralize your threat or threats and live.

This is all open for discussion.

m
 
Thanks for the post I was wondering about this as well.

Mick, when the articles are published please let us know where to look. Good info.
 
Thanks for reminding me, Mick. We've been meaning to purchase those assault slings out of our team funds. The company won't spring for them. They definitely work better. Great advice. I'm looking forward to the articles.

Jason

P.S. Got my MT scout today, G-10 handles...it's a thing of beauty. Exactly what I needed. Thanks for responding so quickly and keep up the good work.
 
Mick, when you say "never fight the BG" during a weapon retention incident do you meant to concentrate more on keeping the firearm holstered, using both hands if necessary?

I was only involved in one incident in my career and the the academy crap did not work. I ended up locking the BG's hand to the butt of my pistol with my weak hand, locking it down even more with my elbow and forearm and then rotating violently to get his mitts off my piece. It worked but during the encounter I kept taking shots to the side of my face with his left hand. I looked like chopped meat.

I just cannot see how I could have possibly used any type of weapon [unless it was in my hand] to defend against this type of "gun grab". At the time we used a Gould and Goodrich Level II holster and while it was real secure on my belt and did not appear that it could be "stripped", I could feel the firearm coming out several times and just locked down even more.

Any better methods?.....Thanxs
 
What an interesting discussion..

I am sooo glad you guys are doing all this for us. I sometimes envy you, but mainly I envy that you are younger and more heroic than I, not that you "get" to cope with this. Thanks!

As a middle aged civilian, I read you loud and clear, Mick- KILL EM!!

Paul
 
Mick,

Thanks very much for the information you provided. Unfortunately, I am doinf a load of laundry and under the inmfluence of draft Canadian beer, so I shall not comment more now. As mentioned, please let us know when and where these publications will be, as I sure will pick them up. I have a little project on the go that I hope to touch base with you on in the near future, but we'll see. It is a busy time for me right now. Hmm... there was lots packed into your words, thanks again for them.

Karl Rejman
 
Originally posted by Mick Strider

However the knife ends up in your hand will work great.

Click to expand...

i have a minor question. the SOE sheath has a relatively stiff handle retention strap (read quality), such is so that when the blade is pulled in a swift movement, the edge cuts into the nylon big time. this is especially so on the MH and the B/S Solution.
i don't know if a floppier strap proves a better choice, but i'm modifying with screwed on plastic straps.

or is it only me with a crooked wrist?

cheers~~
 
"Remember the ‘sticky tip’? Sticky Tip is what you see on a Tanto. There is no sharp false edge. A sticky tip works better on armor than a non sticky tip, due to that fact that a sharp false edge has the ability to ‘slip cut’. Which turns a stab into a cut. We don’t want that. That is the reason none of our EB knives have a false edge. They are made for CQB. "

I understand how a false edge can slip against armour and reduce the ability of the knife to penitrate, but does this change if the false edge is on a curved clip (curving inward toward edge)?

Would it also make sense when it comes to Amour penitration, to have a sticky tip (like you described) and then after some distance from the tip begin a false edge so the knife can cut from both sides?

And one final question, should the angle of a false edge, clip, or other knife "terminous" be dependant on the way a man stabs when in RV grip edge out? Specifically dependant on the radius of the arc that the tip of the knife passes through when stabbing?

-Wolfmann601, where the hell in NH do you live? From all the stories i have heard, i dont want to go there! (portsmouth? Nashua?)
 
If for example you were cleaning out a cave, would you carry a Knife like the ones in your EB series or one in your "Large Knife" series? (in the carry method that you described).

Thanks
 
What works and what doesnt?

Is a knife's effectiviness related to the PSI it exerts on the body armor? Or the angle and cutting action of the blade on the Arimad Fibers?
 
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