Reverse Grip Fighting: Some things that bother me Mick

Great post Mick. From the LEO side:

We teach bio-mechanical cutting in our edged weapons program for our Patrol people. You really don't want to be the first cop to kill a crook with a knife. Is it right, NO, but thats what sucks about the LEO use of force stuff. We fall under so much scrutiny that we have to be very measured in all of our responses. It is really easy for people to start with the "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" stuff, but the reality is that being a cop in prison is not a dreamy thought, so its back to staying within the rules of engagement.

When I am working outside the L/E job-Its a WHOLE different ball game-Mick's rules are right on the money.

It is also important for LEO's to really work on their weapon retention stuff and learn how to use a good level 3 retention holster (training......gosh forbide). I have had a Safariland holster save my life on two occasions, and I am not exactly a little tiny pint size police person. The little tiny police people REALLY need some help (of course those are usually the ones who can't seem to make the holster work....)

On Reverse grip-I like Reverse grip because I tend to hammer fist people when I am fighting, so it is very natural to do the same thing when I have a tool in my hand.
 
Okay wait…
NEVER
Once more for the people who hear like me…
NEVER try to stab through body armor.

You can do it, but why.
When I speak of penetrating armor with a knife, what Im really talking about is ‘stuff’.
Belts, gear, jackets, ammo pouches…whatever.
That is one of the main reasons I say to attack the face and neck. In fact it is the reason right after reason number one, which is, SHUT DOWN THE CPU.
Remember that the thoracic cavity is well guarded. There is clothing, gear, ribs… all kinds of crap in the way.
1. neck
2. face
3. kidneys (usually well guarded with ‘stuff’).
4. if they turn and ball up, rectum.

“Rectum hell, it killed the SOB”
Sorry…


“I understand how a false edge can slip against armour and reduce the ability of the knife to penitrate, but does this change if the false edge is on a curved clip (curving inward toward edge)?”

Yes, good question, but the tip of knives like you describe have less strength.

”Would it also make sense when it comes to Amour penitration, to have a sticky tip (like you described) and then after some distance from the tip begin a false edge so the knife can cut from both sides?”

It wouldn’t really make any difference regarding wound channel.


“And one final question, should the angle of a false edge, clip, or other knife "terminous" be dependant on the way a man stabs when in RV grip edge out? Specifically dependant on the radius of the arc that the tip of the knife passes through when stabbing?”

I think that it would be too difficult to actually plot the curve of a crazed mans stabbing arc, then try to apply it to the knife. Usually, false edge is designed more for utilitarian purposes.

“If for example you were cleaning out a cave, would you carry a Knife like the ones in your EB series or one in your "Large Knife" series? (in the carry method that you described).”

I usually carry at least three knives. An EB on my holster, a Mk1 on my strong side belt and a SLCC on my shoulder (cool guy style). There is always a folder somewhere as well.


Hi DB. Thanks for stopping by DAD!



Thanks for the great posts.

m
 
Mick:

Would you please, at you convenience, describe how you attach it and, if possible, post a picture? Thanks.
 
I am very interested in Knife design and i want to thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.
 
SSN664

Hey this is a pic of the MAN HIMSELF!
Notice the SLCC in the "cool guy" rig on right shoulder.

The caption for this photo should read "Don't F*** with the the MAN!"

<IMG SRC="http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid31/p8ce9cc64aa161c1d7fbb352affe46c7d/fd4b5e38.jpg">


Mick drop me some e-mail we can talk about the SPARTANS being bad ass warriors!
 
Originally posted by NGK-Webmaster
Why is that guy pointing the gun at his arm? ouch. :)
Click to expand...

That's what I was wondering. I don't think that's the best way to show us how macho you are, Mick. :)

Where is the lanyard tucked in the picture? I can't see too clearly.
 
It's a picture, a posed picture, but if all you experts out there look Mick's trigger finger is on the trigger guard, not the trigger and if the handgun were to be discharged I would say the round would impact about 4-5 feet in front of Mick. This is also about the correct angle to shoot someone through the pelvis at bad breath range.
 
It's a picture, a posed picture, but if all you experts out there look Mick's trigger finger is on the trigger guard, not the trigger and if the handgun were to be discharged I would say the round would impact about 4-5 feet in front of Mick. This is also about the correct angle to shoot someone through the pelvis at bad breath range.
Click to expand...

Yep it's a posed picture, and your right the impact would be in front of him, the comment was meant ina playfull manner to begin with. But to add to your comment: yes his finger is not on the trigger, but one should never point a gun at ones self even if your fingers not on the trigger. just common gun sense. and if someones at bad breath range and you need to shoot them why shoot them in the pelvis anyway? :)
 
The pelvic shot is valid. I once saw a suicidal EDP shot through the heart still manage to stagger almost 40 feet, and when he fell he still had a TIGHT grip on his knife and an LEO's flashlight. If a follow-up shot had been necessary, a pelvic shot shot might have been a good idea. He was feeling no pain, in fact, he had cut his own throat repeatedly before he was shot. Also, in a crowd, such as a festival or nightclub, the pelvic shot minimizes the chance of collateral damage. Of course, if the BG has a firearm, the pelvic shot will not keep him from shooting back, and should not be used then.
 
"I once saw a suicidal EDP shot through the heart still manage to stagger almost 40 feet, and when he fell he still had a TIGHT grip on his knife and an LEO's flashlight."

I've got to ask, what is an "EDP"?
 
EDP = emotionally disturbed person. We "badge guys" have to be very careful what terms we use. Defense attorneys and plaintiff's attorneys, and prosecutors/persecutors just love to be able to find "dirt" on us, so we have to use "approved" terminology no matter what the forum or setting. Sometimes we forget that some terminology is not so well known among the public. Someday, when I retire, I will be able to use less "PC" language. Thanks for reading my drivel, and thanks for asking the question.
 
Excellent information. Thank you. A refreshing change to some of the more acrobatic slap & parry stuff you see more & more of these days. Direct, fast, final.
On an unrelated side note, there was in interesting misspelling, a sort of "Freudian Slip"... In a prior post there is talk of "Amour Penetration". That, my friends requires a completely different type of "sticky tip". ;)
 
Awesome info guys!!! And Rugger, thanks for clearing things up for us on the "other" sticky tip :)

I have another question, which is really a whone new ball of wax. So the crap has hit all of the fans in a 5 block radius, and you draw your knife in reverse grip edge out. Um... then what? Supposing the bad guy has a blade too, you have to stick your blade in his CPU without getting tagged yourself. I'm guessing you don't just run and charge at the guy like mad and hope you don't get hit. Do you use your empty hand (called the live hand in Filipino arts) to try to block/grab/deflect as you thrust?

I just started training with a new partner yesterday, who is fresh to any martial arts training at all. But as soon as we can get 2 rubber trainers, we'll be testing all of this stuff out. Thanks.

Oh, and Rugger, rubber trainers can help protect your sticky tip when amour penetrating :)
 
Hell yes you run him down get inside and stab the f*** out of the face and neck region. "LIKE A JUGERNAUT". If the BG has a knife and you don't get to him first your dead. I would just curl my shoulders in keep chin down and go NUTS. I was skeptical of Mick's theroy on knife fighting so I went to my friends Martial Arts acadamy down the street from my house My brother and friends train there. I walked in talked to a guy for a while I assume he was very advanced in fighting. I asked my friend to spar a bit he said "sure". I then goggled him and I up, picked up plastic trainer knife and he said "ready" I said nothing and in two steps moved inside his arms length with a hard stab to his face, the result a hit! He then knocked my ass down! But I know for sure the first stab I got in would have taken all the fight from him.
This s*** works with zero training.
Just move inside FAST. The palstic trainer was 4 inches in blade length, I drew it from my waist band reverse grip, I wanted to replicate Mick's ideas.
Remember Smooth is FAST...FAST is smooth.

We then continued for a few more times, I then became afraid he was going to get really pissed, he blocked my second move but I still got in a small hit to the neck area I came in from a different angle.
But even a small 1 inch stab to the neck is going to do BIG things.

I have to say I did not stab at his face with big overhead swings I stabbed more from the inside, one hand up, knife hand moving forward from my center.

An interesting thing I noticed with sharp side out reverse grip is that any downward block moves done come into direct contact with the blade, do not turn the blade in towards yourself. Keep the tip out.

I never really gave a lot of thought to fighting with the Striders I carry everyday. The knives were bought more for utility tool purpose in mind BUT
after trying this therory out on my brother, friends, and with others at work, I think this is the most sure I have ever been that I can fight and WIN with a knife.

Forget slashing, forget blocking, hunch up move inside and stab stab stab don't quit. Move.

Crayola try this with your new partner have him do it to you with no training, report what happens and the results.
 
I agree and would like to add a couple comments.

First off if the SHTF in a 5 block area you'd be best to get the fk outta there (hope you know the area you ventured into). If you can a good option would be to get as many friendlies as possible and bust through and out ASAP. Also, you will definately want more than a knife if possible. I was in a riot in Mazatlan and there were many locals against Americans - easily hundreds of people involved. When 2x4s with nails and chunks of concrete with rebar are deployed, a knife looks pretty small in comparison. Hearing people get hit with full bottles of cerveza, get thrown into taxi windshields and see four-on-1 brawls is pretty unsettling and I would want something with as much range as possible with the blade as a backup/last resort.

SHTF like that is a pretty sticky situation because despite all of the projectiles in the air and all of the crunching no one was killed (very surprising). Of all things I ended up getting nailed by a big ass texas-style belt buckle that the guy had wrapped around his hand and was using like a flail. There is way to much going on to be trying to fight in a riot (urban SHTF) unless you/yours are in deep crap. I mean one person could look like afriendly and end up braining you from behind. Watch 6 and lay low.

Finally, if I had a knife back then and had used it, it would NOT have looked good in front of Federales that came in on jeeps and M2s within 15 minutes of the first fight that touched it off (I had front row seats for this - a different story).

As far as knifefighting, my limited experience in weapons-oriented martial arts tells me that slashes, feints and parries are great to use to set up a committed attack like a CPU shutting stab. If I had my choice every time I would deploy blade tip up/edge out to give myself as much room as possible to set up a committed strike ESPECIALLY if the other guy has a blade. If the BG starts out with heavy heat from the get go, then the direct CPU attack has to be the best way to go. If the BG has blade but doesn't attack outright and uses e.g. uses feints and angles, an icepick-style CPU shutting onslaught might not be a good thing.

Just my thoughts - inexperienced in the ways of knifefighting. Comments appreciated.
 
krept, that was incredible information about mass attack. Thanks for sharing that. I guess I should clarify my "5 block radius" statement. I'm not thinking in mass attack terms, but instead I mean suppose I'm walking with my girlfriend at night and some 300 pounder high on drugs rounds the corner, sees us and pulls a knife. With the right hand in stabbing mode, what do I do with the left to prevent getting stabbed by the bad guy?
 
You revoke his birth cert...

I never said you wouldn’t be cut. I said you would be the one who lived.

Look at it like this, if you had a gun, would you shoot the knife out of his hand?
No. You would shoot him in the face.

It’s the same with a knife. It has to be. You want to think about being cut? Stand and fight someone with a knife. Do the block, slash, parry thing. You will see what being cut is all about.

Remember, knife in close, LOTS of stabs to the face and neck.
LOTS is important.
Here’s why; when you attack this area with violence of action, the person instinctually turns and protects their face.
INSTINCTUALLY!!!
They ALWAYS do it. Humans protect their assets. Not all animals do. Ones that have to fight with their mouth/face are a good example.
The greatest asset a human has, other than the brain, are the eyes.

It is hard sometimes to add this into training. The reason is that everyone knows its training.
Take off those goggles and attack their eyes with your training knife. See if they turn away.
Not really of course because you will yank out their eye, but you see my point.

Lets talk about grip.
You don’t HAVE to hold the knife in reverse grip blade out. It is simply the most economical in action.
It is a lot easier to protect your vital parts this way because of posture.

All of these things work in standard grip.

Crowd fighting…
Thought we talked about this before.
Very tight body posture.
Blade in close, hidden as well as possible. I like either grip for this. It depends on the hostility and ‘voice’ of the crowd.
If you can be invisible, that is good. Is the group after you? Or are they just a mob?
If they are just a mob, be one of them until you can evade. They don’t know you…
In this case, I would carry the knife reverse grip, hanging down at my side, just kind of hidden by my arm.

If they are wanting to poke your butt….
Arms up blade close, reverse grip ready to kill.
Your posture protects your parts.
Hurt/kill and move.
Screamers are good in this case because they call attention away from YOU.

Gotta go.
Not yet ready for Blade West.

More soon.

Great posts.

m
 
Damn you guys are some typing fools well not fools but damn, these are some long posts. GREAT INFO guys and good questions.

On the rounding corner on a 300 pounder w/knife. I am leaving the area as fast as I can if that is an option if not well birth cert revocation here we go. I also took a training course for those very strange times that I dont have a knife. I always where a belt, and belts make great weapons both offensive and defensive. Mostly defense, but if I tie the BGs arm up with that belt it'll come off long before that belt breaks. Just a thought for other options in bad situations.
 
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