$100-200 knife with bearings?

[bpeezer]

The down side to bearings (from an engineering/technical prospective) is more moving parts to fail.

This is something that I hear frequently, but I have trouble coming to terms with it. From an engineering perspective, bearings are usually considered less likely to fail. They last longer when rotating under loads, provide better friction reduction, and require less (or zero) lubrication. When we throw caged bearings into the mix, they have the same ease of maintenance as washers too.

 

[Badhammer]

Check out the new Buck 830 Marksman. It's a flipper with bearings and an interesting lock. Should be out shortly and the street price will be at the low end of your price range.

 

[mjolnir74]

I've got the ZT0801 and recently, the Southard. If you want to spend another $100 on scales and $40 for a decent clip for the Southard, you're getting into CRK range. If you want a great knife that you can get the blade replaced for relatively cheap with a better warranty, the ZT is the way to go. Once you take that Spyderco apart you're on your own and they don't do blade replacements.

 

[evilgreg]

This is something that I hear frequently, but I have trouble coming to terms with it. From an engineering perspective, bearings are usually considered less likely to fail. They last longer when rotating under loads, provide better friction reduction, and require less (or zero) lubrication. When we throw caged bearings into the mix, they have the same ease of maintenance as washers too.

Yeah, I'm not buying the "more moving parts to fail" bit either, for exactly the same reasons. Mechanical systems using bearings to improve reliability where friction would otherwise lead to issues. Comparatively, rotating elements with bearing systems last longer and require less lubrication and maintenance than they would without bearings.

That said, I don't really get into any of the "parts will explode" arguments about knives. I always hear the few axis lock naysayers (they're doomsday preppers or something, maybe) reliability loons saying they don't like the axis lock because it has springs, and I carried axis lock knives exclusively for years without the omega springs ever being an issue in actual use. If a spring failed, the knife had another one, Benchmade would fix it, and besides the lock could be forced to stay locked by jamming anything in the hole if they both failed.

As opposed to my receiving a simpler, brand new Emerson that didn't lock properly at all, I'll take a system with bearings or springs or whatever, if it's done right.

 

[Comeuppance]

Yeah, I'm not buying the "more moving parts to fail" bit either, for exactly the same reasons. Mechanical systems using bearings to improve reliability where friction would otherwise lead to issues. Comparatively, rotating elements with bearing systems last longer and require less lubrication and maintenance than they would without bearings.

That said, I don't really get into any of the "parts will explode" arguments about knives. I always hear the few axis lock naysayers (they're doomsday preppers or something, maybe) reliability loons saying they don't like the axis lock because it has springs, and I carried axis lock knives exclusively for years without the omega springs ever being an issue in actual use. If a spring failed, the knife had another one, Benchmade would fix it, and besides the lock could be forced to stay locked by jamming anything in the hole if they both failed.

As opposed to my receiving a simpler, brand new Emerson that didn't lock properly at all, I'll take a system with bearings or springs or whatever, if it's done right.

There's some validity to the notion that more parts = more potential for failure, but, of course, it can be improperly applied. For example, one reason I don't like knives that are assisted because 9/10 of them do not have a blade retention system independent of the spring. If the spring fails, you have a knife with a loose blade. (That wouldn't apply, however, to the Blur or the ZT 0350/0566. All of those have a detent hole and could have the spring fail and still be a perfectly functional knife, negating the argument.)

On the other hand, very complicated knives can also be exceptionally reliable - see anything made by Grant and Gavin Hawk. The RAM and ET have some of the most convoluted mechanisms I've ever seen in a knife with many moving parts, but they're solid and reliable knives that just don't fail.

Applying the K.I.S.S. argument to bearing systems is just silly, IMO. Besides, I never heard anyone griping about unnecessary moving parts when the Hoback Rolling Detent was introduced - then again, it's not exactly mainstream, either, but people actively buying knives in that price range are often very critical of almost any minor detail.

 

[dkb45]

I have had my Domino for about 20 minutes now, and can already say Domino Domino Domino Domino. Get. A. Damn. Domino.

 

[dkb45]

Whoops, double tap. The Domino is pretty good, though.

 

[Cereal_killer]

The ball bearings (some brands use ceramic balls others use steel) are very solid and you won't see any longevity questions from me on the ball bearings themselves, what I question is the thin little pieces of plastic they use as a housing, these things are made sheets at a time and just snapped off the sheet (like how sheets of plastic model parts come). How well will these little plastic parts hold up in the long run? Furthermore how much testing have these different companies actually done when it comes down the the plastic its self, will the holes the bearings ride in wear away over time, will the plastic crack from temp differences of shock or anything else..

Look I'm not trying to turn anyone off from any bearing knives, the spyderco's (along with the ZT0801) are at the very top of my wish list. But I do have some concerns about the bearing's housing material they choose, if it was machined from metal my concern would be alleviated but till their long term performance is known I'll have my reservations.

 

[bpeezer]

The ball bearings (some brands use ceramic balls others use steel) are very solid and you won't see any longevity questions from me on the ball bearings themselves, what I question is the thin little pieces of plastic they use as a housing, these things are made sheets at a time and just snapped off the sheet (like how sheets of plastic model parts come). How well will these little plastic parts hold up in the long run? Furthermore how much testing have these different companies actually done when it comes down the the plastic its self, will the holes the bearings ride in wear away over time, will the plastic crack from temp differences of shock or anything else..

Look I'm not trying to turn anyone off from any bearing knives, the spyderco's (along with the ZT0801) are at the very top of my wish list. But I do have some concerns about the bearing's housing material they choose, if it was machined from metal my concern would be alleviated but till their long term performance is known I'll have my reservations.

Some knives use stainless steel cages instead of polymer. In either case, the cage doesn't take on any portion of the load, and as such is a very low wear component. The only potential wear on the cage during normal use is caused by a small amount of friction between the bearings and the cage, where the balls are sliding in the cage. This is a zero load interface, so the wear is negligible (possible immeasurable).

To top it all off, opening a knife rotates the blade approximately 180 degrees. This means that the bearings rotate 90 degrees. This is a very, very small amount of travel. If you cycle a knife open and closed enough times to wear out the bearing cage, I think something else would fail first.

 

[NRA]

I ordered in a CRKT Foresight designed by Ken Onion

Anxious to check out a pocket folder, that glides on bearings. I have never held a bearing knife before, and until recently (this thread) I never knew there was such a thing. I guess I don't get out enough. lol

Picked this up on Amazon Prime for $63 to my door.

Why this knife?? Price, I like Ken Onion designs, and this is as large a folder as I can carry in my pocket under the law, at 3.5" of blade.



[video=youtube_share;qUfb109z7OE]http://youtu.be/qUfb109z7OE[/video]

 

[evilgreg]

I have had my Domino for about 20 minutes now, and can already say Domino Domino Domino Domino. Get. A. Damn. Domino.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I will suggest this again. Forget the Domino and get it's older brother, the older brother is smarter, faster, stronger, and way better looking. Get. A. Damn. Southard.

But if you need a flipper spatula, go Domino

 

[Comeuppance]

The ball bearings (some brands use ceramic balls others use steel) are very solid and you won't see any longevity questions from me on the ball bearings themselves, what I question is the thin little pieces of plastic they use as a housing, these things are made sheets at a time and just snapped off the sheet (like how sheets of plastic model parts come). How well will these little plastic parts hold up in the long run? Furthermore how much testing have these different companies actually done when it comes down the the plastic its self, will the holes the bearings ride in wear away over time, will the plastic crack from temp differences of shock or anything else..

Look I'm not trying to turn anyone off from any bearing knives, the spyderco's (along with the ZT0801) are at the very top of my wish list. But I do have some concerns about the bearing's housing material they choose, if it was machined from metal my concern would be alleviated but till their long term performance is known I'll have my reservations.

However, after a couple years of widespread usage of caged bearings in production pocket knives, I have yet to see one complaint of the cage causing any issue. Not one. At all. Ever. Even if there were a few, just intermittent manufacturing errors or aberrations in the plastic casting process could easily account for that. In fact, that it is not something I have seen is reasonably impressive.

The kinds of temperatures that would be required to warp or deform the plastic is likely to be so high that it would make G10 melt and the metal too hot to hold. I base this on absolutely nothing, of course, but a unfounded assertion, but it seems likely to me. Certainly, the plastic undergoes little to now physical stress as any vertical loads would put pressure on the locking mechanisms/pivot, and lateral loads would put pressure on the metal bearings themselves, the pivot, and the frame. Even an uneven lateral pressure would have to be at a very extreme angle to involve the cage.

It seems to be a complete non-issue in hypothesis and in practice.

 

[dkb45]

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I will suggest this again. Forget the Domino and get it's older brother, the older brother is smarter, faster, stronger, and way better looking. Get. A. Damn. Southard.

But if you need a flipper spatula, go Domino

Now them's fightin' words. The Southard is great... If you like the funky blade shape, and like supporting the oppression of us southpaws. The Domino doesn't support our oppression though.

On a side note I got my 801 today, and I am pretty impressed. The lock bar needs bent in a little more (I already bent it in a little, easy fix and not what I would call an issue), and about a damn hour of carrying it and I fell into a mud puddle, so I had to take the whole knife apart and clean everything. It actually came with an edge that looks nothing like a factory edge I have seen, though... no deep grind marks, and a shaving sharp edge. Kudos, ZT, you made another winner here.

 

[NRA]

Bearings and a spring isn't a great idea. The bearings give the knife a practically frictionless opening (properly made bearings of course), so the spring assist would make the knife rocket open. It sounds like a good way to make an unintentional throwing knife and break the blade stop.

I have handled a few bearing knives. None of them weren't almost completely effortless to open. Keep the spring assist on washers, trust me.

Gerber sells a spring assist bearing knife, in several lengths. Their OutRigger series. I ordered one in XL. I will be interested in seeing this. Only knife model that I have found so far that incorporates both features.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTUwMFgxNTAw/z/DSIAAOxy4t1Si9dy/$_12.JPG?set_id=880000500F