1084 quenchant

sunshadow said:
From metallurgical standpoint, unless they are specifically trying for a hamon, . . . yes. I know that will piss off a lot of folks who claim some sort of mystical significance to the process, hell I used to draw back my spines because someone famous writing a column in a knife magazine said that was how you were supposed to do it, there is a whole lot of useless information out there. Thankfully when I started making knives we didn't have newbtube to promulgate bad ideas

-Page
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Dont mind if it doesnt agree with others just figured since it was so widely used and taught it seemed to be a agreed upon practice. Guess kind of like edge packing. Probably a conversation that would need its own thread since not sure if we are getting off topic. The bad and good of the internet. Allows the selftaught guys who dont have a choice but to learn from books and internet a chance to educate themselves but at the same time its a difficult thing to try and filter the right and wrong.
 
If your worried about the D guard. Take the fully hardened and then tempered test piece Sunshadow told you to make and put a good handle on it and wearing a pair of gloves hold on to the knife and slug a hardwood post as hard as you dare(or a cement wall for that mater). Bet the guard at 59RC can take more than you can hang onto unless it has some very thin areas that would severely deform at a softer temper. If it makes you feel better you could always stick the blade through a slit in a piece of steel and into a bucket of water while you use a torch to take the guard up to 600f or so checking with temp sticks available at any good welding supply.
 
quint said:
So all the guys who edge quench and differential HT are just wasting there time and doing it for no more then looks in some cases?

The videos I was watching most recently were the Kyle Royer videos on youtube. yeah hes a newb but I really liked his videos.
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Ummmm Quint, Kyle Royer is a Newb? :confused::eek::eek: ABS MASTERSMITH.... Kyle Royer? :p Don't let his age fool you!
 
Oh I know of his abilities. Amazed when I first saw it that he was what 20yrs old and doing that stuff. Talented and he makes good videos I think.
 
ib2v4u said:
If your worried about the D guard. Take the fully hardened and then tempered test piece Sunshadow told you to make and put a good handle on it and wearing a pair of gloves hold on to the knife and slug a hardwood post as hard as you dare(or a cement wall for that mater). Bet the guard at 59RC can take more than you can hang onto unless it has some very thin areas that would severely deform at a softer temper. If it makes you feel better you could always stick the blade through a slit in a piece of steel and into a bucket of water while you use a torch to take the guard up to 600f or so checking with temp sticks available at any good welding supply.
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Temp sticks? What, are they like fancy crayons that melt at certain temperatures? I have never hear of them. I'll have to look for local welding supply Yeah, it would probably be easy enough to do do as you say.
 
Brian Ayres said:
Yup. Get canola oil and draw the other parts back with a torch. Look up Corny Keg, Cornelius Keg on CL. They are the portable soda pop containers with the SS bodies and black tops. They often can be had for cheap and can be sealed up when no in use. They hold around 3 gallons.

There are some great posts in the past by Tai Goo and others with real testing data to support the use of canola over all the other easily available options like motor oil when an engineered quenchant isn't an option.
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So I looked up these corneilius kegs. They look to be about the right size, and I like the idea that I could seal up the oil in them so as not to have to worry about spilling it but it seems like openings in the tops of the kegs are only about 3" across. I don't see how the whole top come off, looks like just a little plug that is held by clamps??
IMG
 
Vulcanite said:
Temp sticks? What, are they like fancy crayons that melt at certain temperatures? I have never hear of them. I'll have to look for local welding supply Yeah, it would probably be easy enough to do do as you say.
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They are called Tempilstiks, Vulcanite. Good training aid when used correctly... horribly confusing when wrongly applied. Tough for knife blades because of the thin cross sections.
 
We still call Kyle the kid LOL, and he is a very talented maker. Edge quenching and drawing the spine have their place, depending on the intended use for the knife. My suggestion would be to go ahead and quench the whole blade in 100-130 canola, temper at 400 for two hours and two hours again, then use a torch to carefully draw the temper to a spring blue on the guard area. Make sure you have the blade portion in a water bath. You can use an O/A torch or a propane torch. The propane torch will take longer but you will have more control if you have not done something like this before.

I do not know of any mystical significance to drawing the spine, but for a large camp knife it makes a super tough one, and I usually draw the ricasso and tang area on my knives along with a portion of the spine. Not a large portion. I also very rarely edge quench. I prefer a full quench even with hamons.

Just my two cents.
 
Vulcanite said:
here is a guy who uses is what looks like a section of 4" pipe secured by the base w/ a flange to some 2x2s using parks.

Where do you get one of those electric submersible heating elements? Though, it is probably not necessary w/ the parks 50 on a hot day, workign range is 50-120? Though, probably hotter is better...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRA-PihJI1Qhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRA-PihJI1Q
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I use a similar setup for quenching. I have about a 2' or so of Schedule 40 PVC centered in a five gallon bucket. I then filled up the area around the bucket with playground sand. It holds the pipe securely in place. On the bottom, I have a cap glued into place. On the top, I have a threaded coupling so I can screw a cap on/off as I need it. Since my setup is outside, I just put the cap on when I finished and it keeps the rain and other debris out.

With a 3 or 4 inch pipe, you're not holding much oil and really don't need a heating element. I found that a few hot pieces of rebar will get the temp right where I want it. If you're using Parks #50, you'll probably not need to heat it much, if at all. I believe the operating range for that oil is somewhere around 60 to 120 if I remember correctly.
 
if you keep the oil sealed so debris doesn't get in there, lets assume the park oil, how long will it last? How do you know when it is failing and not quenching properly?

Maybe I'll just use a six gallon bucket w/ some stuff in there to displace some of the volume. Would be easy to seal it w/ a gamma seal lid. and would be easy to put a bucket heater in there if the heater has a thermostat that will more than just keep water from freezing.
 
Rick Marchand said:
They are called Tempilstiks, Vulcanite. Good training aid when used correctly... horribly confusing when wrongly applied. Tough for knife blades because of the thin cross sections.
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Sweet, they have them in like 25 degree incriments. Maybe I'll get some for 600 for softening certain parts and 400 so when I am griding HT metal I can make sure the steel doesnt' loose its temper. Should be able to get them at the local air gas
 
Mudbug007 said:
I use a similar setup for quenching. I have about a 2' or so of Schedule 40 PVC centered in a five gallon bucket. I then filled up the area around the bucket with playground sand. It holds the pipe securely in place. On the bottom, I have a cap glued into place. On the top, I have a threaded coupling so I can screw a cap on/off as I need it. Since my setup is outside, I just put the cap on when I finished and it keeps the rain and other debris out.

With a 3 or 4 inch pipe, you're not holding much oil and really don't need a heating element. I found that a few hot pieces of rebar will get the temp right where I want it. If you're using Parks #50, you'll probably not need to heat it much, if at all. I believe the operating range for that oil is somewhere around 60 to 120 if I remember correctly.
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Yeah, I can get 10' of 6" pipe from HD/Lowes for a like $24. Another $10 for a copule drain caps, one to be glued on the bottom, the other to just dry fit on there unless I want to put a threaded cleanout on the top. Stick that in a bucket of sand and would be good to go. A column of oil 6"x20" tall would be just about 2.44 gallons.
 
Spent alot of time reading about quenchants etc. I'm going to get some Houghton Int K quench. Failing that, I'll get the Parks #50 if I can.

Anyone know wehre to get some K quench on the internet? The only online place I found wanted $250 for 5 gallons! Surely it can be had for closer to $75. I got their main cust service #, perhaps I can find a local place??

I can experiment w/sofetning the guards w/a torch I guess.
 
Vulcanite said:
Spent alot of time reading about quenchants etc. I'm going to get some Houghton Int K quench. Failing that, I'll get the Parks #50 if I can.

Anyone know wehre to get some K quench on the internet? The only online place I found wanted $250 for 5 gallons! Surely it can be had for closer to $75. I got their main cust service #, perhaps I can find a local place??

I can experiment w/sofetning the guards w/a torch I guess.
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If you want some Parks #50, call or email Maxim Oil. They're out of Ft. Worth and I received 5 gallons for $91 plus $29 for shipping. They got it to me very quick! Here's their website (although you'll have to call or email for a quote on shipping) Maxim Oil

They also carry their own formulated quench oil that is similar to Parks #50 (I think it's called DuroTherm 48). It's cheaper than Parks also (my quote was $70 per five gallons). Ask about it when you contact them. I've heard nothing but good things about it.
 
Some random comments:
1) Making a quench tank from PVC is a bad idea. PVC melts. A 1500°F piece of steel can go right through it by accident. Nothing meltable, easily pierced, or breakable should EVER be used for a quench tank.
PVC does make a great etching tank.

2) Many new makers get all excited and start building forges, making burners, getting tools and grinders, looking for steel, building quench tanks, designing all kinds of knives, re-invent the D-guard Bowie,......you get the picture. Some of them are never heard from after six months. They race to get started and when the first few knives don't turn out just like Nick Wheeler's, they get disappointed and quit making knives.
Others take their time, study, read, find a nearby maker to learn a few tricks from, attend some hammer-ins or classes, start simple, and work up to bigger and fancier knives. They send the first several out for HT, start with a 3" blade drop point hunter, etc.
Take your time, read a lot, do a little, read some more. Make one project at a time, evolving to bigger projects.

3) A gallon of grocery store canola oil will get you started in home HT.
After you get your forge built and running right, do the HT on a dozen small and simple knives with canola oil first. Once you have the HT process figured out on a simple steel like 1084, then getting 5 gallons of Parks #50 and trying bigger blades and more complex steels will be a lot better investment.
 
Stacy is right about the PVC pipe... one wrong plunge and you will lose all of your oil... or worse. I do see a lot of folks using them and I cringe.

I was one of those guys who made everything I saw and spent a lot of time learning through trial and error. I should have read and asked more questions. My holy grail(of quench tanks) was to make a 36" vertical tube, 6" in diameter, that would hold approx 5gal of quenchant. I can't weld peanut butter to bread so I had one made that was cheap at $80. I installed a heater and thermometer(nothing PID controlled) After a couple months or so, I dismantled it and had a 36" horizontal tank made. For the type of blades I was making, the vertical tank gave me an aweful "tip-dip"... kinda like a reverse sori. The answer was quenching spine first and the vertical tank would not accomodate. The horizontal is much more versitile in the long run. Just my personal opinion. I use Houghton Quench K and love it!
 
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