1095 Cro-Van and 50-110B Types of Steel

I mean, most of my income is from sharpening. And most of what people bring me to sharpen is knives. I only free hand sharpen.

So I feel like I can probably get a better idea than some, of the steel that I'm sharpening, from how it feels while I'm sharpening. It's obviously isn't super scientific, but I can tell right away if a knife is going to be a good knife from that.

Agree, though I can't tell as much from a steel that I don't know about. I made the point either here or on another thread that when I was testing plane irons, I quizzed the sender of one of them over and over about a 3V iron being 61 hardness. I believed them because I don't use 3V, but it turned out to be 59, which I didn't know until a month later after getting hardness results for everything.

For chisels and planes, this is simpler than knives because you don't have the challenge of factoring in profile - they're all flat like a sheepsfoot blade. I also only freehand sharpen tools and it's possible to become very accurate at it (again, easier than knives because it's straight) with variance of about a degree. I don't think this stuff makes sense to beginner, but feel is a matter of experience and intentionally paying attention because you've already got the mechanics of the movement set. Once you don't have to pay attention to basic mechanics of things, you can think about other aspects or observe or discern.
 
My research is proprietary non-conventional, this video demonstrated 1095 potential.

1095 63rc 12.5 dps with 15 dps micro bevel plane chisel edge test

Paring and gentle chiseling Argentine Lignum Vitae (4500 Janka Hardness, where red oak is at 1200 Janka).

 
We call that verawood in woodworking. It is indeed extremely hard and dead crossgrain cuts can be hard on tools - planing it across the end when it wasn't still green probably wouldn't happen with a hand plane.
 
Hey D D-weaver , you keep writing something that strikes me as weird.

You keep saying "it has an ura". I'm assuming you are talking about a hollow ground into the back side of the chisel. Is that correct?

Ura, in Japanese, means back, or behind or inside, or hidden or even secret... It doesn't refer to a particular feature on a blade.

Maybe it's American wood working slang...
 
Hey D D-weaver , you keep writing something that strikes me as weird.

You keep saying "it has an ura". I'm assuming you are talking about a hollow ground into the back side of the chisel. Is that correct?

Ura, in Japanese, means back, or behind or inside, or hidden or even secret... It doesn't refer to a particular feature on a blade.

Maybe it's American wood working slang...

I think someone else said that, but I'm familiar with the term. The ura on a plane iron or a chisel is steel intentionally ground out of the back so that you don't get stuck abrading a big surface of steel that barely cuts on a natural stone. We obviously have stones now that can deal with this, but it's still convenient and it's easy for a chisel or plane maker to install the ura with a wet grinding wheel.

I'm not much of a japanophile type. I've had a whole poo ton of japanese natural stones and razors and tools, but I'm into the tools, and not so much the kind of proper noun policing that you'll see among some circles. So, ura may just mean the back of the tool in general (it's used in combination with dashi, ura-dashi.. for maintenance of the back of tools to keep the steel that's not hollowed meeting the edge. If the hollow part gets to the edge and isn't corrected, there are obvious problems (you can't touch it with a stone to sharpen it).

I guess I should say that differently, if it means "back" then I'm sure you're correct and the implication is that back on a tool means flat with a hollow ground in it. Most americans think it's the hollow, though;
 
I wanted to say something in response to something you said in that 12c27 thread but its closed. (Havent finished reading yet, I guess I'll see why)

Anyway. Yes, I definitely see some mixed up priorities in knifemaking. Many blades are much too thick to be what I would consider useful for anything. A perfect ht is a great thing, but if the person that takes that steel with an optimal ht, and they don't grind it thin enough, what was the point in spending all that time, and money getting the blade heat treated correctly?

I would be willing to bet money (seriously), that a suboptimal heat treat, on a great geometry, will perform just as well as, a great heat treat with suboptimal geometry. Depending how far off they got on the heat treatment, the suboptimal heat treatment may even do better.

Now the obviously best option is, optimal heat treatment, and optimal geometry. But I just think that people making knives, can get way too lost in the weeds of their heat treatment, and completely disregard, the fact that geometry cuts.
 
You seem to make a lot of assumptions about knife makers. I think the vast majority of those of us who make knives professionally learned the quote from Roman Landes early on and took it to heart, "Geometry cuts, heat treat determines how long". But you're sort of new to this forum.
 
You seem to make a lot of assumptions about knife makers. I think the vast majority of those of us who make knives professionally learned the quote from Roman Landes early on and took it to heart, "Geometry cuts, heat treat determines how long". But you're sort of new to this forum.
Honestly your probably right there.

Most of my experience with people that are into knives, isn't with the makers. It's with the EDC crowd, and they seem to mostly ignore geometry. And as far as knives, my experience with them, isn't from custom makers, its production folders and etc. That are designed overly thick to hold up against careless use, and to to likely cut costs in various ways.

The kitchen knife people I talk to, are totally different. Geometry is king there, but they are probably a minority of knife people when compared to the EDC crowd.

But yeah, your right. that opinion is likely tainted by those things.
 
There is a variant of silver steel from Ground Flat Stock in England (GFS knife supplies) that fits the L2 spec and is a higher chrome variant of 1095 cro-van, it has 1% carbon, 0.95%chrome and 0.2% vanadium. Very tough and stable steel when well treated.

But here is my two cents, there are some things that I think are paramount to your success.

I'd recommend getting any means to control your temperature, be it a muffle pipe in a forge with two thermocouples in it plugged on a high temp thermometer or a proper heat treatment oven. Then it will be slightly easier to discern between steels types then, as one variable will be mostly discarted and the whole process will be much more reliable.

I make my own woodworking tools, as a matter of fact I went to pre-university art school here in Quebec 12 years ago and specialized in wood sculpture before making knives, and that is where I actually learned to forge under menthorship of a teacher who was a 4th generation toolsmith. One thing in particular I have realized (and especially since I started making and selling knives) is that the whole process is somewhat more important than the steel, as long as it isn't something with too much alloying like HSS or stainless, they are a whole different beast altogether to deal with.

If you don't forge too hot (not over 2000f), normalize the steel adequatly for said steel, do some grain refining cycles (its usefulness is nowadays debated but in any case when well done it can't hurt much), do a DET anneal to refine the carbides as much as possible, austenitize in a way that you put just the right amount of carbon in solution for said steel, quench in a fast enough medium and that you have means to convert as much of the retained austenite without going too high in temperature at the temper, be it cryo or simply be dilligent to temper straight after quenching, then I'd say any of these low alloyed steels will do a most excellent job. And that is very hard to do consistently without some sort of accurate temp control. The biggest enemy I have seen so far for woodworking tools is retained austenite, this is the culprit that makes deburring a pain in the a**, holds onto foil edges and promotes small deformations even on a hard >63hrc edge. You need to be especially careful to austenitize at temps that don't put too much carbon in solution, have a fast quench oil (or if you are a bit bonkers like me, a water quench with clay slurry, japanese style), and go straight to temper for a good hour at least, and then another. Cryo I have never tried but I guess that would be icing on the cake.

Steels like 1095, 26c3 and shirogami do excel somewhat when it comes with dealing with retained austenite as they don't have much alloying that might promote it if well treated as above. Steels with high chromium like 52100 or that special silver steel I wrote about at the beggining require some adaptations to overcome this challenge and might actually benefit a bit from cryo, but I think if they are worked well and heat treated with specific austemp to deal with how chrome affects the whole structure they can and will make terrific cutters. The vanadium or tungsten alloyed steels like cruforge V or aogami/vtoku2/1.2419/1.2519/1.2442/1.2562/ApexUltra can also work very well but they most definitely need special care to deal with the carbides and their refinement, otherwise you'd get big weak clumps of carbides, and carbide tearout on a fine woodworking edge is a no-go. 1.2519 and apex ultra would have also to deal with the same chromium potential issue as 52100.
This explains in part why steels like shirogami 1 or 26c3 are very well suited for this type of tool. It isn't that they are the best, it is mostly that straight out of the bat they get to a very good result with less hassle than some others, but again somewhat higher alloyed steels might surpass them if you got your thing together.

I personally love GFS silver steel, old files, 26c3, vtoku2 and 80crv2 for wood chisels. I have made mortising chisels, flat chisels from 1/2 up to 3" wide, all japanese style laminated to some pattern welded wrought iron and 15n20 billets and hollowed Ura.

80crv2 for anything that requires high toughness at the slight detriment of very fine edge holding. My 48inch long 2.5" wide timberframe slick a friend of mine has borrowed and he absolutely loves it.

GFS silver steel and vtoku 2 for balanced overall properties, plenty tough and quite stable edges that holds a bit longer than 80crv2. Vtoku in particular keeps a very decent edge vor a while after the fine razor edge is gone. I love them for working hard woods like rosewood, amaranth or katalox, they hold their own very well.

Old black diamond files (mine are over 30 years old and were checked out at a metallurgical lab at my local college to be some sort of 1.2% carbon w2) and 26c3 for stuff that prioritizes refined edge holding over everything else.
These I temper at 65hrc and are very stable at the edge, it is mostly for finishing work.

I did one in Cruforge V and it is very tough and holds a working edge forever but the very fine edge holding is not much better than gfs silver steel or vtoku for example, so it is a but redundant. I keep it for very aggressive slicers and hunting knives, it is perfectly suited for it.
I have yet to make a chisel out of 52100 but I would be very curious to try it out, must be lovely if well treated. I have done monosteel knives that are very pleasant to use with this steel, following Larrin thomas protocol.

So that was my two cents, do whatever you want with it but these are some of my conclusions, having been for some years already through a similar thought process as yours regarding steel types for woodworking chisels. This whole exploration thing has also trickled down to my knifemaking in a way, as even thought they are two different tools the steels are mostly the same and the edge behaviour is quite similar.

In any case I am very curious to see where this goes, keep us updated
 
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There is a variant of silver steel from Ground Flat Stock in England (GFS knife supplies) that fits the L2 spec and is a higher chrome variant of 1095 cro-van, it has 1% carbon, 0.95%chrome and 0.2% vanadium. Very tough and stable steel when well treated.

But here is my two cents, there are some things that I think are paramount to your success.

I'd recommend getting any means to control your temperature, be it a muffle pipe in a forge with two thermocouples in it plugged on a high temp thermometer or a proper heat treatment oven. Then it will be slightly easier to discern between steels types then, as one variable will be mostly discarted and the whole process will be much more reliable.

I make my own woodworking tools, as a matter of fact I went to pre-university art school here in Quebec 12 years ago and specialized in wood sculpture before making knives, and that is where I actually learned to forge under menthorship of a teacher who was a 4th generation toolsmith. One thing in particular I have realized (and especially since I started making and selling knives) is that the whole process is somewhat more important than the steel, as long as it isn't something with too much alloying like HSS or stainless, they are a whole different beast altogether to deal with.

If you don't forge too hot (not over 2000f), normalize the steel adequatly for said steel, do some grain refining cycles (its usefulness is nowadays debated but in any case when well done it can't hurt much), do a DET anneal to refine the carbides as much as possible, austenitize in a way that you put just the right amount of carbon in solution for said steel, quench in a fast enough medium and that you have means to convert as much of the retained austenite without going too high in temperature at the temper, be it cryo or simply be dilligent to temper straight after quenching, then I'd say any of these low alloyed steels will do a most excellent job. And that is very hard to do consistently without some sort of accurate temp control. The biggest enemy I have seen so far for woodworking tools is retained austenite, this is the culprit that makes deburring a pain in the a**, holds onto foil edges and promotes small deformations even on a hard >63hrc edge. You need to be especially careful to austenitize at temps that don't put too much carbon in solution, have a fast quench oil (or if you are a bit bonkers like me, a water quench with clay slurry, japanese style), and go straight to temper for a good hour at least, and then another. Cryo I have never tried but I guess that would be icing on the cake.

Steels like 1095, 26c3 and shirogami do excel somewhat when it comes with dealing with retained austenite as they don't have much alloying that might promote it if well treated as above. Steels with high chromium like 52100 or that special silver steel I wrote about at the beggining require some adaptations to overcome this challenge and might actually benefit a bit from cryo, but I think if they are worked well and heat treated with specific austemp to deal with how chrome affects the whole structure they can and will make terrific cutters. The vanadium or tungsten alloyed steels like cruforge V or aogami/vtoku2/1.2419/1.2519/1.2442/1.2562/ApexUltra can also work very well but they most definitely need special care to deal with the carbides and their refinement, otherwise you'd get big weak clumps of carbides, and carbide tearout on a fine woodworking edge is a no-go. 1.2519 and apex ultra would have also to deal with the same chromium potential issue as 52100.
This explains in part why steels like shirogami 1 or 26c3 are very well suited for this type of tool. It isn't that they are the best, it is mostly that straight out of the bat they get to a very good result with less hassle than some others, but again somewhat higher alloyed steels might surpass them if you got your thing together.

I personally love GFS silver steel, old files, 26c3, vtoku2 and 80crv2 for wood chisels. I have made mortising chisels, flat chisels from 1/2 up to 3" wide, all japanese style laminated to some pattern welded wrought iron and 15n20 billets and hollowed Ura.

80crv2 for anything that requires high toughness at the slight detriment of very fine edge holding. My 48inch long 2.5" wide timberframe slick a friend of mine has borrowed and he absolutely loves it.

GFS silver steel and vtoku 2 for balanced overall properties, plenty tough and quite stable edges that holds a bit longer than 80crv2. Vtoku in particular keeps a very decent edge vor a while after the fine razor edge is gone. I love them for working hard woods like rosewood, amaranth or katalox, they hold their own very well.

Old black diamond files (mine are over 30 years old and were checked out at a metallurgical lab at my local college to be some sort of 1.2% carbon w2) and 26c3 for stuff that prioritizes refined edge holding over everything else.
These I temper at 65hrc and are very stable at the edge, it is mostly for finishing work.

I did one in Cruforge V and it is very tough and holds a working edge forever but the very fine edge holding is not much better than gfs silver steel or vtoku for example, so it is a but redundant. I keep it for very aggressive slicers and hunting knives, it is perfectly suited for it.
I have yet to make a chisel out of 52100 but I would be very curious to try it out, must be lovely if well treated. I have done monosteel knives that are very pleasant to use with this steel, following Larrin thomas protocol.

So that was my two cents, do whatever you want with it but these are some of my conclusions, having been for some years already through a similar thought process as yours regarding steel types for woodworking chisels. This whole exploration thing has also trickled down to my knifemaking in a way, as even thought they are two different tools the steels are mostly the same and the edge behaviour is quite similar.

In any case I am very curious to see where this goes, keep us updated
Its been awhile since I've read up on my Japanese steels. Would silver steel be also known as ginsan (I can't remember the translation of ginsan 😂).

Interesting thought. The retained Austenite idea, makes sense in why he may have seen some of these results. Especially with him hting in a forge. If he doesn't intend to upgrade his austenizing, and thermal cycling methods. I think at the very least adding cryo may help him with possible retained austenite coming from over heating before his quench, depending on the alloy.

I dont remember asking what medium he used to quench in. These are definitely not bad suggestions. As far as I can tell.
 
Its been awhile since I've read up on my Japanese steels. Would silver steel be also known as ginsan (I can't remember the translation of ginsan 😂).

Interesting thought. The retained Austenite idea, makes sense in why he may have seen some of these results. Especially with him hting in a forge. If he doesn't intend to upgrade his austenizing, and thermal cycling methods. I think at the very least adding cryo may help him with possible retained austenite coming from over heating before his quench, depending on the alloy.

I dont remember asking what medium he used to quench in. These are definitely not bad suggestions. As far as I can tell.
Hahah well don't worry about silver steel, it is a confusing designation. Hitachi does brand ginsanko as their own silver steel, but this is another steel altogether. Originally the term silver steel was used to designate drill rod tool steel from sheffield, it's basically w1 at 1-1.2% carbon with some chrome if we talking about the old bs1407 spec. Most woodworking tools from england were made of this or o1 decades ago. 26c3 is kind of a cleaner, thigher spec'ed and slightly higher overall carbon version of it. There is also the european variant from bohler, k510, basically the same but with tigher specs and some vanadium to keep grain size in check. The one I got is kind of an anomaly, I've never seen it somewhere else, that 0.95% chrome makes it behave slightly differently and a bit like 52100.

In any case each of these steels are also widely used since decades in straight razor making so if well treated I wouldn't worry too much about edge stability, they all excel there.

On a side note about getting the proper equipment, I used to be as lowtech as
possible and not rely on electrical stuff as much as possible but that is contradictory with reliability and in the end I chose the latter. Buying a dewar to do cryo while doing forge HT would be something to behold, a bit contradictory if you ask me but hey who am I to judge...



I still do some rustic tools that I heat treat by eye in the forge once in a while, and small bushcraft knives from 1076 or 80crv2 as gifts for family and friends that I make in 3hrs from start to finish and they are most of the time surprisingly decent, but I wouldn't sell them, as I couldn't guarantee reliability on the long run as much as if I had done it with my kiln.

I also think that most people doing stuff with limited equipment use subpar quench mediums. And especially with anything higher in carbon with low chrome and manganese there is no vegetable oil or motor oil that will get all the steel has to offer. It is parks 50/equivalent or water for these.

I could tell my whole process when I water quench but it is quite a long process to explain, and I only do it in san mai with specific steels that can handle it, and anyway trust me parks 50 saves much hassle and is even more reliable.
But if people are curious about that water quench, I use a very similar method to Harbeer from HSC III and Murray Carter, there is a plethora of videos that murray has done that gives enough details how it's done. Onlu difference is that I use a kiln and use precise temps varying with differents alloys based on japanese data and personal tests conducted over the last 3 years.

In any case if serious results is the goal one has to commit to it and make sure that the process is reliable and repeatedly at that, otherwise the data won't be worth pringles
 
Hahah well don't worry about silver steel, it is a confusing designation. Hitachi does brand ginsanko as their own silver steel, but this is another steel altogether. Originally the term silver steel was used to designate drill rod tool steel from sheffield, it's basically w1 at 1-1.2% carbon with some chrome if we talking about the old bs1407 spec. Most woodworking tools from england were made of this or o1 decades ago. 26c3 is kind of a cleaner, thigher spec'ed and slightly higher overall carbon version of it. There is also the european variant from bohler, k510, basically the same but with tigher specs and some vanadium to keep grain size in check. The one I got is kind of an anomaly, I've never seen it somewhere else, that 0.95% chrome makes it behave slightly differently and a bit like 52100.

In any case each of these steels are also widely used since decades in straight razor making so if well treated I wouldn't worry too much about edge stability, they all excel there.

On a side note about getting the proper equipment, I used to be as lowtech as
possible and not rely on electrical stuff as much as possible but that is contradictory with reliability and in the end I chose the latter. Buying a dewar to do cryo while doing forge HT would be something to behold, a bit contradictory if you ask me but hey who am I to judge...



I still do some rustic tools that I heat treat by eye in the forge once in a while, and small bushcraft knives from 1076 or 80crv2 as gifts for family and friends that I make in 3hrs from start to finish and they are most of the time surprisingly decent, but I wouldn't sell them, as I couldn't guarantee reliability on the long run as much as if I had done it with my kiln.

I also think that most people doing stuff with limited equipment use subpar quench mediums. And especially with anything higher in carbon with low chrome and manganese there is no vegetable oil or motor oil that will get all the steel has to offer. It is parks 50/equivalent or water for these.

I could tell my whole process when I water quench but it is quite a long process to explain, and I only do it in san mai with specific steels that can handle it, and anyway trust me parks 50 saves much hassle and is even more reliable.
But if people are curious about that water quench, I use a very similar method to Harbeer from HSC III and Murray Carter, there is a plethora of videos that murray has done that gives enough details how it's done. Onlu difference is that I use a kiln and use precise temps varying with differents alloys based on japanese data and personal tests conducted over the last 3 years.

In any case if serious results is the goal one has to commit to it and make sure that the process is reliable and repeatedly at that, otherwise the data won't be worth pringles
Yeah. I've seen break test results showing the differences people get going from oil to brine quenching, and the grain seems to look finer when doing a faster quench with these low hardenability steels.

I'm always a bit skeptical about how reliable just doing a break test is for assessing grain structure, but I haven't seem actually seen micrographs comparing the microstructures of these steels in different quenchant. .
 
I'm always a bit skeptical about how reliable just doing a break test is for assessing grain structure, but I haven't seem actually seen micrographs comparing the microstructures of these steels in different quenchant. .
It's not reliable. At least not without a microscope. The best it can do is give you a rough idea of your realitive grain size. Is it giant? Bad. Is it small enough that I can't see it? Better, maybe good.
 
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